I don't mean to be one of those people that shout "privilege" at every turn on the Internet, but most people with no savings and barely any income would be freaking out unless they had some family or support network to lean on, which I noticed any discussion of is suspiciously absent.
Presumably he now needs to either get a job asap or make some hard choices. But it sounds like the post is supposed to be a retrospective so its not surprising he isn't really talking about the future.
> I don't mean to be one of those people that shout "privilege
He literally had enough money to blow $80,000 on 2 years of unemployment. Of course he is privleged. Most people in the computer industry are. Most posters to hn are. The average person lives paycheque to paycheque and certainly doesn't have 80k just lying around in their bank account.
No, my specific point is that he does not sound like he needs to make hard choices, and he is alluding to continuing working on his own projects in the future. He writes:
> I made resolutions: to make $1M in revenue in 2025. Well, that's not really happening… But rest assured, I do everything possible to reach that goal rather sooner than later.
and
> blymp is the only one generating money — about $600/month — and the one I plan to continue next year. Yay!
and finishes with
> Here's to a promising year 2025. My third year without a job. A year when I give more than I receive. A year of patience. And a year of an even deeper connection with myself. Cheers!
And sure, people that make a high income job are privileged, but I was using it in the sense that you frequently see it used online, specifically that he has a backup pool of money/support somewhere, most likely family, that he conspicuously leaves out of his post.
Some people are just like that. I've been in similar moments (financially) as that guy, and as weird as it sounds, I was laughing at it. lol
I don't think me or him are immune to anxiety by any means, but that our triggers are probably different.
I'm primarily calling him out because his story, as written, simply makes no sense, because reality. He has no money left, and is making less money than his next rent payment, but he is talking about continuing on in the next year doing the same things he did in previous years. Except in previous years he started with 80k, and this year he's starting with 0.
I'm really not particularly interested in his anxiety triggers, I'm interested in where he will be getting money for his next rent payment. There are literally only a couple options: he's got backup support somewhere that will provide him with funds/housing/food, he plans to get some "day jobs" to fund his lifestyle (which would then severely limit his entrepreneurial time), or he plans to just ride out the eviction process where he's currently renting until being homeless. One of these must be true, and I think it's a pretty critical part of his story that he just leaves out.
> my specific point is that he does not sound like he needs to make hard choices
Then, a subset of those people (myself included) replied saying they wouldn't sound much different in a similar situation.
Maybe you can send your question to the author if they have a contact form/email on their website.
But you are right that this is not clarified anywhere in the post, and the math as described does not add up.
I had an agenda with 2-3 weeks worth of planning to stay with friends and aquaintances. I would never stay at the same place for more than 1 night. The friends would tollerate it for 2 weeks or 2 months but if i limit the visit to 1 day per week, 2 weeks or a month their patience would never run out. The deal was this: you pay for shopping i clean the kitchen entirely, i Cook an elaborate meal, clean the kitchen again, sleep and leave at 8 am.
The funniest were the ones who chose to abuse the deal and turned their kitchen into a giant mess. They pretty much didnt do anything for 14 days. I vaguely knew them, we didnt get along so well but i was excited to see the mess. This looks very welcomming! I joked. Some also ordered elaborate fancy 3 course meals that took some doing. They would enjoy the elaborate candle light dinner together after a day of hard work while i slaved away in their kitchen. Fucking hilarious.
Today i would much enjoy a monthly elaborate dinner with my girl in exchange for 1x using a bed in a spare room i never use. Renting it out for a day for $ to a stranger is not going to happen but if it did it wouldnt cover the cost for professional cleaning plus a private cook.
I also had friends who never cook and ones who barely clean. I did whole office buildings, vacuuming a livingroom is not going to impress me.
He does talk about the future and seems to imply he’ll continue to not have a job.
If that’s the case, I’m with GP in wondering how he’s going to make it past January.
Life is shit sometimes, when he is out, he'll be out. Or he'll find some way of generating income, and then he gets another chance.
I've been in similar situations myself, and there is absolutely no reason to get stuck up regardless how stressful and painful it is, you can only do your best and that's it.
I'm baffled by these responses. The reason we're calling him out is because he literally says he is not looking, at least for another job, in his blog post. It's not about wanting him to be stressed and anxious, it's about trying to understand how he plans to not have a job in 2025 and just continuing on doing more of the same, when in previous years he said he started with 80k, and now he's starting with 0.
Whether that is because you simply dont have much money, or you spent it all on something frivilous is immaterial.
He didn't want to work on the building he was doing a lot of work for the Exploratorium. His idea was to put in the 4th floor and have me try to complete the building to get a certificate of occupancy. So that is where I lived.
Williamsburg at that time was very different. One could not park on the street with out a chain to hold your car hood shut. One's battery would be stolen otherwise. The office I worked in was full of people who were concerned that I lived in that neighborhood.
So I had a very good set-up and I felt a lot of gratitude for my situation but it didn't feel much like a privilege. Sweeping the floors of that apartment was almost pointless for the first year or two...
I'm happy to say I wasn't privileged but fortunate if that satisfies you.
Your comment really brought it home for me.
Now imagine that, but no family support and one of you has cancer.
But living paycheck to paycheck to most people definitely does include spending one’s money on non-bill things like lotto tickets, consumer goods, restaurants, and things beyond their means.
Instead of Netjets you can own your own jet(s). Instead of restaurants you can buy them or have the chef come to your house. At the extreme end, you can start a space program.
The sky’s the limit!
The difference between $900 pants and $50 pants is more than lifestyle creep. I see it as indicative of a stratified society. Previous times had wealthy paying more for clothes but it showed in workmanship or materials.
In the words of Lucille Blutb:
How much could a banana cost, $10?
I see Lifestyle creep as an individual gradually spending more for meals and cloths
You might be able to make ends meet by cutting the 401K and yoga classes, but if that's what you need to cut to eat the next month, what do you cut to eat the month after that?
This guy was obviously not living anywhere near paycheck to paycheck.
By this definition I was not living paycheque to paycheque, but my situation was definitely not good, compared up someone who made better money but spent it each month on nonessential.
and inside that group - people who made one bad decision, and people who have neuro-divergent issues that make managing the budget more of chore than it is for someone without the issue.
Dictionary seems to agree, Merriam Webster says: "to spend all of the money from one paycheck before receiving the next paycheck", not specifying that you can't have spent the money on semi-essentials that could perhaps be moved by a few months but you'd need to catch up with sooner or later
There is also a way to borrow money short term from your 401k that turns into an unauthorized withdraw if you don't pay it back in a relatively short time (a year?)
These all seem reasonable.
[0] Yes, there are rules to prevent the worst abuse, mostly limiting you to doing so once every three years, the small total, and the need to fill out paperwork explaining the unexpected cost.
This exact debate showed up on another thread here the other day. While I agree with you, I was surprised to learn that many people view it to mean that tdon't have anything extra *after* they've done all of their socking away of money each money. Which is weird to me, but hey.
That’s pretty much paycheck to paycheck if your savings are that low.
Poorly, that's how.
When faced with a hypothetical expense of $400, 63 percent of all adults in 2022 said they would have covered it exclusively using cash, savings, or a credit card paid off at the next statement (referred to, altogether, as "cash or its equivalent")
https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2023-economic-we...).
Edit: That said, the part you quoted supports GP, the part in quotes seems to be what they actually asked. Credit is probably not what most would think of as "cash equivalent", that would be debit, checks, and transfers like Zelle.
16% straight answered like that, if you scroll down to the next table for non-cash-equivalent payments:
> Put it on my credit card and pay it off over time
Suppose that you have an emergency expense that costs $400. Based on your current financial situation, how would you pay for this expense?
If you would use more than one method to cover this expense, please select all that apply.
a. Put it on my credit card and pay it off in full at the next statement
b. Put it on my credit card and pay it off over time
c. With the money currently in my checking/savings account or with cash
d. Using money from a bank loan or line of credit
e. By borrowing from a friend or family member
f. Using a payday loan, deposit advance, or overdraft
g. By selling something
h. I wouldn't be able to pay for the expense right now
https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2024-supplementa...
Edit: The people running this survey also had the same thoughts about ‘maybe some people are choosing to not this directly even though they could?’ And added this question:
Based on your current financial situation, what is the largest emergency expense that you could handle right now using only your savings?
1. Under $100
2. $100 to $499
3. $500 to $999
4. $1,000 to $1,999
5. $2,000 or more
This is discussed just below the stats @Jabble sites!
To explore this potential difference between how people would pay for a small, unexpected expense and whether they could pay for it with cash or the equivalent, the survey included a question asking people what the largest emergency expense was that they could handle using only savings. Eighteen percent of adults said the largest emergency expense they could handle right now using only savings was under $100, and 14 percent said they could handle an expense of $100 to $499
Anyway, it still doesn’t seem like most people live paycheck to paycheck, according to your link:
> Some financial challenges, such as a job loss, require more financial resources than would an unexpected $400 expense. One common measure of financial resiliency is whether people have savings sufficient to cover three months of expenses if they lost their primary source of income. In 2023, 54 percent of adults said they had set aside money for three months of expenses in an emergency savings or “rainy day” fund—unchanged from 2022 but down from a high of 59 percent of adults in 2021.
seriously, everyone in this thread should watch Financial Audit and see how people outside the silicon valley bubble really live. That show has extreme examples to be sure but there are so many people like this
Not an excuse for using credit cards, just an explanation why you should sympathize.
In the US everyone is basically forced to have a credit card and use it but many have little financial literacy, especially immigrants.
Credit access in the US is ludicrous, you can be a terrible borrower (late or even tons of charge offs) and still get credit offers for credit cards. A lot of people then get into trouble because somewhere in their psychology the credit limit counts as money they "have" even though they understand they have to pay it back. That's why you have people talking about literally freezing their cards in a block of ice to control their spending.
However, a debit card usually covers the floor of needing a card of some sort to pay for a lot of things.
By this definition, I would imagine a very large number of US households fit the mould.
https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/paycheck-to-paycheck-and-five-...
>>> According to our analysis, in 2024, around a quarter of all households fall into this camp, an increase from 2019.
They define living paycheck to paycheck as spending 95+% of income on necessities (housing, food, etc.)
[1] https://institute.bankofamerica.com/economic-insights/payche...
And the third world.
In Western Europe? Not so much. I mean, yes, there are poor people, but the middle class mostly doesn't live paycheck to paycheck.
https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/germany/individual/taxes-on-per...
Marginal tax rate is 42% on the first EUR after 278K. That would astonishingly high total income in Germany. There might be some remaining solidarity tax from the reunification, but I cannot see how you get to an effective tax rate of 50% on 100K income, which is considered excellent in Germany.
Can you share a worked example how effective tax rate can be above 50%?
1. Minor mistake. 42% marginal is at 60k~ish, the 278k number is 45% 2. The effective income tax rate around 100k is in the area of 25%. When there's numbers thrown around above 40% they usually include the 19% sales tax, CO2 tax etc. it's a slightly odd number including government induced cost.
I mean I would fit in this category too for maybe past decade, little cash left over after paycheck but I did like exotic 5 vacations per year and invested rest into mortgage for mountain apartment for rentals.
1. Most Americans are not paycheck-to-paycheck. It is what politicians constantly say depending on whether they are in power or not.
https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEconomics/comments/1dbpaag/do_th...
2. Americans have higher disposable income at all income levels than Europeans (Western Europe included).
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/xgoouz/americans_ha...
> Americans have higher disposable income at all income levels than Europeans
That's the quickest path to $1M. Software developers are too caught up on salary (or 73 different "income streams" that all make $0), and rarely think about building a valuable business.
It's easy, just build a million dollar asset and sell it. Pssh, I am on my third one this week.
The point is that solving dull business problems like that might be lucrative, but not many of us are motivated enough to do them.
Is there a way to contact you? I couldn't find it in your profile, unfortunately.
You're right that the million dollar opportunity is a lot more interesting for a startup. Of course, it's also going to be a lot harder for that startup to displace VMware (which the potential customer probably is using). I'm not sure going after those crumbs is a terrible idea but there are already other option like Xen too.
Personally I have a mortgage and a family, so I'm not eager to burn through savings to build a company 0-1, but if I had to, I described exactly what I would do.
But if you deliberately quit, that may be the thing to do. A more conservative person would probably counsel getting at least a part-time job that pays a salary though.
But the limiting factor is not AI or any kind of tech, it’s getting these businesses to trust you with fitting into their existing systems and giving you their time.
I was recently working six days a week with a nearly-empty fridge. My coworkers were scraping by. I have two jobs now. Due to a car repair, money is tight through December but we have food (and the car). Working 12 hours a day does cut into time I might build skills for a better job. Still progressing, though.
My coworkers and I at each job can’t usually take even a week off unless it was a paid vacation. A year or two? That’s like a dream goal for us.
Whereas, it’s terrible he had a divorce and lost everything. I’ve prayed that Jesus Christ bless he and his former partner with mutual forgiveness and new lives with peace. I thank Christ that He gave much joy in financial or other circumstances that would cause depression in most people. He is our Rock.
Also with the cost of living shooting up so much - C$80k of today is probably as much as $50-60k of 2019.
Privilege is relative. There are around a billion people today that won't make that much money in their entire lives. And most people alive today will never save even 1/10 that much money.
But he’s not. He’s specifically spelling it out by saying his gut and stomach issues are very likely tied to the stress of his no stable income.
Did you know there are people, right now, who are squandering a fortune on mundane things and won’t have to work a day in their lives? You can be jealous of them (I am) but that’s all.
That makes it -$1800CAD.
Thanks for noticing.
If they have $1k left in available credit, and they were making tech wages, that means on just that one credit card they are probably $9k to $24k at least in the negative already. The $1k of remaining available credit is not yet debt, but the negative bank balance is.
It is also likely they have more than one credit card, and maybe also some student loans.
As a european, I also didn't realize what CC stood for and was tripped up by the math same as the person you're replying to. Not everyone lives in a world/country where living on credit is the norm (at least not yet).
I'm a contractor and last year my agency said there would be layoffs, which caused quite a scare, but in the end only contractors residing in Canada were affected.
Your tagline on your profile made me laugh.
You might want to reach out to your mortgage provider and see if they can help. Often they will.
Where in Canada are you?
I'm in Toronto. My info is on my profile.
Sell your house. You can't afford it.
Investment shenanigans excluded, if you have enough savings to pay off your mortgage in case you lose your job, there's no point in getting a mortgage in the first place.
You're poisoning the well there, as that is the major reason to get a mortgage even when you have enough cash to buy a house outright. It's not "shenanigans", it almost always makes financial sense to keep your cash invested elsewhere when mortgage rates are low.
But the rest are still there.
Sometimes I wonder how people manage to browse the Web without encountering "common" pieces of wisdom. Maybe we should bundle up a bunch of useful YouTube/TikToks as a supplemental education package for students.
Had this same type of idea cycle around recently quite a bit lately. Similar issue, if this experience actually had the "uninstall", "quit", "leave", "exit", or red X in the corner, it would have been hit a long time ago. Much rather drop and go bodily join some fantasy or sci-fi land than the perpetual grind of meaningless, mundane, superficial, banal America. There's a reason millions spend almost every waking moment staring at a screen, playing a game about a fantasy or sci-fi land where you can actually feel like you accomplish something than interacting with the human race.
Frankly, a lot of MMORPG economies almost look preferable these days, and nearly as believable. At least in quite a few you can personally manufacture something and at least have a possibility of making money that's relevant. On Earth, rather challenging. Etsy for example:
Only 26% of Etsy shops are successful and run as full-time businesses, or 74% of all Etsy businesses eventually fail.
Average Etsy seller makes $2,900 per year
One part that's been really bothersome lately is how many games actually seem better implemented than the "real" world. Farming Simulator being one of the perennial cases. The equipment is implemented down to the individual bolts and seals on the engines, and you can probably print out the CAD models and manufacture your own tractor they're so detailed. Yet the game actually implements numerous technologies that the "real" farming consistently refuses. Quicker iterations, quicker development, quicker releases and responsiveness to customers. Intermediate cost farming equipment for the starting farmer, bicycle and human powered equipment with low yearly input costs. The "real" farming sector appear unable to do little other than offer the same $500,000 super-rigs they've been offering for years. There was a post a while back where the Farming Simulator people actually complained to the John Deere's of the world "common guys, how about some entry level stuff, we don't have anything to offer our players."
Anyways, TLDR, would have quit, uninstalled, and then burned the computer in the yard a long time ago.
> Most followed on Instagram - Christiano Ronaldo (635m)
Christiano Ronaldo was not born rich. He was born in a poor family in a poor region of one of the poorest EU country in the 80's.
Oh yes. Game designers - and same goes for any fiction authors, really - have two things going for them here. One, they can skip the grind; the boring and annoying distractions from the goal that are also necessary to achieve it in the real world. And two, as you noticed, fictional worlds can be designed to work.
Like, what's the difference between a tractor in Farming Simulator and in the real world? The simulated tractor is meant to work - to do the stuff the tractors do. The real tractor is first and foremost meant to make money for manufacturer; whether it works and can do the tractor stuff, that's incidental.
Or in short, games implement the child's view of the world, where things are what they seem to be. Bakers bake bread, firemen help people, singers sing so everyone has fun, etc. Everyone plays their role straight. The real life, unfortunately, has people doing whatever to survive in a more or less structured matter; it may manifest in bakers and firemen and singers, but their roles and value provided are incidental and they're not fulfilled and they'd all rather be somewhere else.
The child's worldview is a lie. It's honest, it's good, it makes sense, but it's a fucking lie. I'm still having difficulties processing that it's a lie. And it's all too easy to immerse yourself in sci-fi/fantasy videogames or shows or books, because they all assume the world makes sense, that things are what they seem, what they're supposed to. When things are not what they seem, that's a goddamn plot twist.
So yeah, I can't help but daydream about how the world could look like if we could just do stuff directly, instead of incidentally as a way to make money to survive (and eventually, enough money to tell the world to GTFO, so we can live out our own fantasies of a world that works).
So the gamble is, do you spend 2 years saving up for 6 months of income as a buffer and send tens of thousands of dollars down the drain in the meantime, or do you roll the dice and hope nothing bad happens in the next 5 or so years? The people who end up in the best position will be those who take the second option, and most of the time it will work out.
My point is rather that preferences, including the material reality that you seek, are almost entirely cultural. There is no culture vs reality, but rather some cultural values vs other cultural values
At some point, it probably makes sense to buy a place if you can if only for the stability as you get older.
Somehow the little guy always ends up taking most of the system's losses, though.
Also don't forget taxes, insurance, mortgage interest needs to get paid while house is in your hands. Most mortgages have lots of interest during the first few years.
Im not sure about Canada, but Private individuals can list on redfin and Zillow in the US. MLS posting must be from a broker, but you can hire one flat rate upload your listing
I believe what this guy is referring to is that his startups currently aren't making money. And, to that end, this blog post is a marketing piece.
Sure, some landlords are large real estate companies, but all you're doing is forcing out small landlords and ensuring that large companies own all of the rental properties.
(Like all regulation, it is at a fundamental level pro-monopolistic, favoring large companies that can handle the overhead of complying with the regulation and punishing small players who cannot.)
If a renter is evicted, the consequences for their life are much more severe.
Not all regulation is pro-monopolistic. The accumulation of general regulation and restriction is often supported by incumbents but that doesn’t support the sweeping conclusion you’ve reached.
For landlords, they have to be much more selective of which tenants they take, and deny rental applications for those with eg bad credit or incomes that are technically enough to cover rent but leave too little of a buffer. They have to either pay for some kind of insurance (I don't know if this exists but I would assume it does) or diversify across enough properties so that they're financially protected from the risk of getting a non-paying tenant. And of course, yes they may have to deal with the hassle of a drawn out eviction of a non-paying (and often intentionally or unintentionally destructive) tenant who will likely never be able to repay the landlord even if held liable in civil court, which raises their costs in aggregate.
For tenants, besides having those increased costs and income/credit requirements passed through to them, they also have to pay higher security deposits. But probably the biggest problem is the effect on supply. Small scale property owners (especially the kind that ends up becoming an "accidental landlord" because they eg bought a condo and then moved) are highly disincentivized from renting their property out, and when they do, they're highly incentivized to not put it on the open-market and instead opt for their personal network/word of mouth/in-group. For example, lots of large tech companies have internal housing rental groups and many properties may only be advertised in places like that, or within a tight-knit social group where there are real reputational risks to being a non-paying tenant.
Really the problem IMO is that excessively permissive rental protections are a kind of social welfare benefits that are purely born by one part of the private sector. If governments compensated landlords for unpaid rent and intentional destruction from uncooperative tenants (which they have done in some cases for eg covid, but these are often done ad-hoc so landlords can't count on them and adjust practices accordingly) who take 6-12+ months to evict, then most of these problems would disappear.
I understand the sentiment but I don’t understand why point it out. It’s not like the blog post in question is putting anyone down, complaining about anything, or being obnoxious.
There will always be someone more privileged than you are. Why constantly remind yourself (and others) about it if the more privileged person isn’t harming anyone?
I don't judge him at all for being privileged or what he's done. I judge him for leaving out what I think is the most important part of the story: how he could go on this journey and come to a point where he's got no money left but he isn't freaking out about being homeless or getting food.
This guy isn’t doing that, he’s writing some kind of report on doing his own thing. He’s not trying to sell you on it or anything.
I was between jobs several years ago and my startup failed - I ended up washing up at a restaurant to be able to continue feeding my family. At the time it was humiliating to be in my late 30s scrubbing pots and pans for the minimum wage but looking back it’s probably one of the periods of my life I’m most proud of: Putting pride aside to do what’s required to be a father and a provider.
I’m not sure if this is part of America’s “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” syndrome, but I don’t see anything wrong doing dishes for 8-12 hours straight to feed your family… unless this is actually the norm in thinking and maybe it’s just my poor blue collar upbringing?
From 15 to 19 I worked restaurant/shipment jobs, and carried a rifle in a warzone soon after that. Fast forward to present day - I sit at a desk and write software all day, getting paid well to do it. If I didn't have a job tomorrow you bet I'd be doing what it takes to provide. However, if I had to go back to the restaurant or shipment centers making 1/8th to 1/4 of what I do now you bet I'd be feeling pretty fucking pitiful about myself.
Do I look down on the work? Absolutely not. We do what we need to survive. IMO though, as a physically/mentally healthy person, the idea is using lower paying monotonous positions like washing dishes as a stepping stone for a more fulfilling and better paying career move.
https://www.hnhiringtrends.com/
Everybody got used to continuous growth, but I fear that for most people the music has stopped.
I can't pull that trick off again. But at least right now I still have a job, and don't seem to be too much at risk of losing it for the moment (work at a consulting firm and developing some highly requested features that will make a lot of money at my current client).
I actually didn't see that these data are HN-specific, but that only serves to reinforce my point in two ways: 1) HN is only a small sample of the overall industry, and 2) since HN hiring presumably skews disproportionately toward the startup/VC funded ecosystem, it's likely to be even harder hit by interest rate hikes and economic downturns.
Reason being: If the distributions of user types have changed over time (e.g. 2010 having a higher % of more entrepreneurial / founder type users vs employee-type fokls [like myself] looking for their next gig) then it could skew the results no?
Anecdotally the graph makes total sense. I'd just take the absolute ratio/differences with a pinch of salt.
The way things were during the previous decade was not sustainable. The current situation too shall pass and hopefully evolve into something more sustainable.
I for one don't miss the churn fuelled by easy VC money.
{ "statusCode": "TypeError", "message": "Cannot read properties of undefined (reading '0')" } An error occurred
Only trusting your gut is probably as bad a piece of advice as saying ”never trust your gut”.
Don’t always obey your gut. But listen to it and make your own judgement. Sometimes it tells a hard truth.
$80k can easily last you 4+ years of very comfortable living in much of the world. Enjoy the food, really try and learn some of the local language, and enjoy yourself.
You can do it, and there won't be another window.
"I need a 3 bedroom apartment with a full kitchen in the village center, with at least parking for one car, I have a budget of $300/mo".
"Here's at least three options"
It also bring up a kind of discomfort between us, as tech workers, and regular people. The quantity of money we can earn, even at the lower end in the U.S., is unfathomable. It makes us want to go places and spend somewhat frivolously to support local businesses.
We were recently in Portugal. There's a ton of trendy food spots with prices near what we'd pay in HCOL U.S., but there's a ton of really local, mom 'n pop places, with absolutely incredibly prices, and they're incredibly appreciative of your business.
One place we frequented was maybe a 30 second walk from a very trendy tourist district, but served local food at very local prices. Ubers were lined up to drop people to go overpay for mediocre food in the district, literally on the street next to where we were eating. If they would have just taken a moment, they could have come and had a great relaxed meal and support some locals for almost next to nothing.
I hear that - last time I was in Lisbon I got breakfast in one of those kind of places and had to ask the cashier if they made a mistake with the change and had given me back too much. Like literally, they could have charged double I would have accepted it as a fair price for a nice meal.
We came across more than a couple business owners who had side hustles as property speculators. One owner basically said that he's buying whatever he can get his hands on since there's a guaranteed return.
As tourists we're of course part of the problem, but we're also a lot of the economy. I think Lisbon is also somewhat in a problem like San Francisco, constrained geography, and paradise for the climate, all creating very high demand from people who have the money. People with money will simply outpay people with less to live in more desirable areas.
It doesn't help that Portugal also has very cheap/easy long-term/permanent visa programs which doesn't help. They're almost one of the easiest ones globally that also gets you into the EU. https://www.globalcitizensolutions.com/portugal-residency-vi...
At the same time as we've completely failed to expand housing stock, we invented a new visa to allow wealthy foreigners to immigrate without a hitch. Then later a new visa to allow anyone who wanted to immigrate without a hitch (which about 600k people from developing economies took advantage of in the last five years).
There is nothing about our situation that has been worsened by tourism. It's the one economic sector driving the country forwards and I'm personally very grateful it has developed so much. A large part of my extended network can only make ends meet because of jobs created by tourism.
Also true: the amount of money needed to make ends meet doubled because of the large influx of people…
The real question is: did the majority of natives improved their life with it?
I finished college right at the beginning of the financial crisis. I can't overstate how bad of a state Portugal was in around 2010. There have been no jobs and no money for a long time. Since I can remember we have been the third world of the first world. Tourism and outside investment in real estate have been the one thing that's capitalised Portugal in a decade. There's been nothing else for decades.
Of course you're right that there have been economic losers from this recent large influx of people. The poorer segment especially has been betrayed by a government who opened the doors to functionally slave labour from Pakistan. There's no competing with half a million people who will pay to work if they're given a contract that allows them to stay in the EU. But that's not tourism's fault. We created our own reality.
Yep, I was in Portugal back in June and was blown away by how nice it was. City life, the beach towns and overall prices of things. That was my first time going to the EU from the US.
I was on vacation so I ate out every day for all meals but I don't think I paid more than $5 for breakfasts and most sit down dinners were $12-15 all-in. I splurged one night in Lisbon and had the craziest plate of sushi I've ever seen and it was $18. That was from a 4.9 rated sushi bar with ~800 reviews.
My total food bill for 14 days of solo traveling was ~$475 and I wasn't purposely trying to budget. That includes randomly trying a lot of things that I normally wouldn't do like getting a fresh smoothie while walking around because why not. That food bill also includes 3 days in south western Spain because I moved around to a few cities (Seville, Spain -> Lagos, Portugal -> Lisbon, Portugal was the loop I took with day trips to a couple of places).
But what about healthcare? How do non-rich US citizens who retire abroad deal with that? There are actually two aspects to that--how do you get healthcare abroad, and if you later move back to the US are there problems getting on Medicare?
You should look into it. It very much depends on the country.
But typically you just start paying taxes or fees or whatnot into whatever the national system is in place. Most countries will require you to have proof of some type of outside insurance before immigrating.
There are overseas specific health insurance plans you can get on -- typically not very expensive because healthcare in the rest of the world isn't insane. [1]
Most countries also have a cash-only payment schedule. Unlike the U.S., fees for health services are typically known up front.
In any case, even paying cash, you're likely to find healthcare outside of the U.S. (in tier-1 countries like the EU, Japan, Korea, etc.) to be high quality and very low cost -- often cheaper than healthcare in the U.S. with insurance.
They flew her back to the US, where she’s from, to do filming there and have us friends come by to throw frisbees and talk about how much they’ll miss her. It was weird.
The fact that I can buy a house in Thailand for something insanely cheap also means that I can make sure that the local school has whatever they need, for basically just a haircut.
You can take the local orphanage and make sure hundreds of kids are comfortable for hundreds of USD a month.
Btw, last decade has shown USA is not a global police anymore.
Got a name?
For a bit higher-end, we liked Cantinho do Sol near the Marques De Pombal circle. I think we spent maybe 20-25 euros a person there, were stuffed to the gills, and nearly drown in our drinks. Employees were lovely Brazilians in the front of house and the owner, a local I think, was the chef.
> For a bit higher-end
You've been to the TimeOut Market? Very busy, touristy, but good selection of local specialties. Same price range, more or less.
Obviously the OP has no children (and my brothers' kids are grown up) - if you have kids this changes the equation completely (though if they're very young then it can still work).
It was not good.
I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea this is unless your children are under 3. Children need structure and permanency. They need friends, not just acquaintances. My cousin did everything else right, but his kids still have issues with relationships because 5 of their very formative years were spent without actual friends. It's really sad to think about.
For him, it was a wildly selfish move that negatively impacted his children. Don't be that guy.
This may be different to your situation, but when i was younger I wanted people to like me, and if they didn't I'd blame myself for being weird. Now I'm older, I don't give a shit if people like me or not, and I've stopped thinking of myself as weird.
Simply because the sample of people we encounter socially is skewed towards the pro-social, and the ones we notice and remember, doubly so.
There's a lot more quiet, reserved, low-key people out there than we realise, and most of them aren't weird.
(Also plenty of pro-social, extrovert types who are weird AF, but that's a different topic.)
As a moderate introvert (handle social situations OK but need the down time to balance), I just find some people aren't worth the effort, and like to save my energy for those that are.
But the weird/normal axis, I'm a little less comfortable with (similarly "neurotypical"/"neurodivergent"). Fundamentally I dislike the idea of letting the most boring people claim normal, in a similar way to how LGBTQ and nonwhite folks don't like it when cishet or white people claim normal. Most of the people I most enjoy spending time with are ADD, ADHD or ASD, and all the better for it. It's not like these are even disabilities, they're just different ways of being.
I'm OK with the labels themselves as a broad, shorthand way of understanding personality types / ways of seeing the world, but I don't buy that no-label people are more normal.
Edit: I realized I didn’t respond as directly as I’d like to. I think I do want people to like me, and that’s ok. I think it’s also ok to not care
I think the key point in all of this, which you and others highlighted, is weird vs not weird is very much a consequence of social conventions. It's also important, generally speaking, to fit into these conventions to facilitate social cohesion. There are obviously extremes, which are outside of my considerations here.
I should have put more effort into my original comment but I was in a rush at the time. This bit might not apply to you, I don't know you, these are just my own poor articulations. Feeling like you are weird, or don't fit in, or make people uncomfortable, basically comes down to peoples reflections of their judgement on you. This is inescapable and to judge is human nature. But being on the wrong side of it, for long enough, can lead to a very negative mental state. Having the ability to realise you are not responsible for other peoples feelings is important. And also realising these feelings are largely dictated by the society you find yourself in is also important. These things can be changed, social circles need not be permanent, and should probably be changed if leading to a negative mental state, brought about because you feel you don't fit in.
I stand by my original point that there is no such thing as weird or normal, anymore so than some cultures or societies can appear weird or normal, which is highly relative. Otherwise intelligent and conscientious people should not believe themselves to be less than they are because they are at odds with their current time and place. As Yuval Noah Harari would say, society is a fiction.
Good for you that you learned to cope with that. After the ‘don’t give a shit’ stage there usually is ‘sit back and observe’ stage to understand what exactly you don’t give a shit about.
You surely care about what your partner thinks about you. Your parents perhaps? Your friends? It's part of the emotional connection.
You can be laid back and easy going, but you're still going to care if your loved ones strongly go against your core beliefs and ways of living, right?
Also, whether we like it or not we depend on other people. If you want to get hired, reproduce, sell stuff, or just not be a hermit, it matters what people think of you.
Sometimes that means changing who you are. Sometimes it means finding people who are more like you (I know that I hate living in most rural areas based on the people I've met in them, for instance). Maybe a combination.
If everyone prefers not do deal with you, perhaps they are all toxic, terrible people. Or… there is a common element.
There’s a difference between defining yourself based on the expectations of others and being such an individual that nobody can relate.
Good advice would be "be somebody else".
The self help books that teach various tricks... basically make one be someone else.
However, a lot of people, like the person I originally replied to, choose to remain alone, and that's often because they are scared of rejection or of being left alone. It's kind of ironic, like a contradiction. Longing for connection, but being so scared of rejection that you force the rejection to happen yourself, so that it doesn't happen to you involuntarily, but by forcing that rejection through self-isolation you basically guarantee your doom rather than opening the possibility for flourishing.
It turns out that this necessity never truly goes away. Aside from merely surviving (e.g. you need your doctor to at least tolerate you) interacting with other human is what makes life more than just surviving. At least it’s like that for most people.
Even hermits and sociopaths need to be liked by at least one person, which is their own selves. Since the number must be at least one, it might as well be 2 or 3.
Yep, and even a slight degradation of that trust that your parents that are necessary for your survival will protect you can have devastating, life-long psychological effects. And indeed everything can be traced back to that.
Perhaps controversial but I think this is the origin of most religion: baby is protected by infinitely powerful parents, child has shocking and painful revelation that their parents are not infinitely powerful and have all kinds of insecurities and weakness, therefore a forever infallible representative (e.g. God) is constructed to fill in that gap.
But I think that's just one way to fill the gap, and people engage in all kinds of strange, obsessive behaviours to try and reclaim that illusion of eternal protection and safety.
obviously i don't know your cousin, but before you blame him, consider that there may have been other factors that you can't see, that were beyond their control.
the worst thing in my experience is relatives who think they know what i am doing wrong as a parent, without understanding the whole picture. (friends too, but once friends do that, they are no longer friends). try not to be that person.
Glad someone said it! I’m disinclined to take any parenting advice from a peer group that’s been raising kids on tablets for the last 10 years. But ya, moving around is the concern hah. God forbid they see life outside the suburbs.
There are more alternatives than the extreme you're describing.
RV culture is much more lonely and expects people to be more self-sufficient. If you need help, there may or may not be people to help you; for sure, the whole campsite won’t jump to help, unlike a marina.
At least, that was my experience.
We don’t actually live on a sailboat in the sense of this discussion, but a lot of our friends do.
I wouldn't say it's abuse, but it's certainly depriving the kids from learning how to develop socially. They aren't learning how to maintain friendships, and are being implicitly taught that such connections are disposable.
I've had the misfortune to see actual child abuse, from the story presented in the OP it doesn't rise even close to that level. Let's please reserve words/phrases like that for situations that warrant it.
It may not be an ideal parenting strategy, but claiming it's abuse cheapens the word. Are the children being fed properly? Are they being physically/sexually harmed? I've unfortunately had to intervene in a situation with my niece that involved the above 3.
The parenting method in the OP may not be ideal, but plenty of people have had childhoods like that My mom grew up moving every 5-8 months, her dad was a contractor for the TVA. There are still people who follow around contracting work. Please don't minimize that actual harm caused by child abuse by cheapening the term.
I happen to agree this probably doesn’t rise to the level of child abuse, but there’s a large range between there and unfed/physically/sexually harmed.
We shouldn’t cheapen it, but we shouldn’t make it too expensive either.
But it’s not abuse.
You’re correct that physical/sexual harm and malnutrition are not the only things that constitute abuse either, though.
*Liking facebook photos does not count.
Then guess what: I moved.
Correlation != Causation. People are different and respond differently to various situations.
For me personally, having been in lots of places means I always have people to visit and in many cases a place to stay.
Edit: my brother grew up into a child abusing POS by neglecting his kids, but let's looks at statistics VS anecdotes since individuals from all backgrounds can be garbage people.
That they need permanency, sure but that's the parents and the living situation
You could argue more soundly that modern schools are child abuse if we follow the commenter’s line of reasoning.
Sorry, but this is BS.
Structure, yes. Permanency, no.
And certainly not child abuse.
I know just as many examples of people with this experience, for whom it was amazingly positive and contributed to the successful people they are today.
That is nothing like what we are discussing here.
"Even AFTER accounting for family background and achievement at the end of kindergarten, mobile students had significantly lower reading and math achievement tests scores in seventh grade."
"Frequent relocation was associated with higher rates of all measures of child dysfunction; 23% of children who moved frequently had repeated a grade vs 12% of children who never or infrequently moved. Eighteen percent of children who moved frequently had four or more behavioral problems vs 7% of children who never or infrequently moved. Use of logistic regression to control for potential confounding covariates demonstrated that children who moved frequently were 77% more likely to be reported to have four or more behavioral problems"
Diplomats travel with their families. Employees of multi-nationals travel. US military travel. At least that last group (i.e. their kids) I know does better than average.
It seems to me that their survey intermingles two very different groups – the larger group, those who moved due to extreme financial insecurity (who would do MUCH worse), and those who moved under "positive" circumstances.
A specific research paper isn't necessary in my opinion for this site and topic, but Wikipedia is a simple starting point to find some.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4866579/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135382921...
For the layman:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/17/health/moving-childhood-d...
https://www.psychiatrist.com/news/moving-even-once-in-childh...
https://www.verywellmind.com/moving-depression-and-your-chil...
From the first link you provided:
> Firstly, increased risk for onset of mental disorders between mid-adolescence and early middle age could be a consequence of serious and enduring difficulties within families, rather than being a direct result of residential mobility. Relocation occurs more commonly amongst single parent and step families and those from lower socioeconomic background
Unfortunately, you took one single "could be" sentence out of an entire gamut of data confirming mobility-related mental health issues in children and completely ignored the conclusions section in that same paper, so I think you have already severely hardened your position and are unlikely to be convinced by anything I offer.
I would suggest simply talking to a practicing psychologist about this - you would probably be far more convinced than a HN commenter. Actually, this is where I first found out the same - I didn't know about this until a consultation with a psychologist.
(You can also ask your AI buddies - ChatGPT also confirmed it with several case studies offered.)
AirBnB’s and homes are located in areas and designed for living like normal social human beings.
RVs are parked in areas that are not designed to sustain long term living.
In many cases they simply dont have any friends at all. Or are always the incomers.
Of course you can live in a place with lots of kids of your own age and still be lonly, or the kids can be dicks, but in my opinion there is benefit in socialization at age 4-10. Kids could go out ans play together. The nomads cant.
IMO permanent group of friends and place, repetition, predictability are a foundation for growth. Then you can sprinkle one off things on top. Not a life of unpredictable mess when you are on your own.
Also if you dont speak the local language how can one even socialize
We moved a lot as kids due to my dads jobs. It was nothing you can point at and call call crazy like living in a rv, just normal jobs like a million people have to deal with, yet has essentially the same effect as your nomad rv story. Some time in the air force followed by different electronics and computer engineering jobs that just resulted in a significant move every couple of years.
Depending on my mood I can say I didn't make a lot of friends or that I made exactly normal friends, and that any weirdness about me was caused by that, or was my own nature and that didn't change anything. I can think of argumants that sound reasonable both ways, and I can cite various facts (things about me, events and outcomes in my life, etc, and the same about others with different events and outcomes) that support both ways.
Which means what I choose to say or blame says more about me than anything else.
Every thing you can say about stability I can say something equal about conformity.
One thing I would point out is that military kids are in a far different scenario than the OP's cousins kids. Military kids will grow up moving from base to base, but the schools around bases are fundamentally different. Those are schools where teachers are used to student turnover, and the students are as well. OP talked about kids that were in a more nomadic situation, where they could only form brief <1mo friendships. The local culture of these communities is also used to and adapted somewhat to this.
That sounds like childhood trauma to me, the closest analog might not be military children but the foster care system. Not a 100% analog, since presumably the OP's cousins kids didn't have the pre-existing trauma that entry into that system necessitates, but that is the closest conventional analog I can think of. Moving around constantly into communities that aren't necessarily set up to deal with that is rough.
Our neighbors a few years back had spent years living on a boat with their child up until age 6, I think it was, and it was great. And their daughter had a very positive experience. But yeah, once she was older they moved onshore.
I don't think moving itself has a negative effect. If you stay long enough for your kids to establish friendships, sometimes those friendships can remain when you move. My 8 year old boy still plays almost daily online + FaceTime with his friend from 1st grade in another city even though they were only a year together they established a bond that is very strong years later and they haven't seen each other. They're still best friends.
The usual YMMV.
Also, it sounds like they were traveling for 5 years? Yeah, that does sound like a very long time - I imagine if it had been 1 year or so it might have been a very different story (?)
Same with the Adriatic. If you decide to stay in Dubrovnik or Split, for example, it'll be quite expensive, but there are other places to stay in Croatia that are non-touristy and inexpensive.
Also Portugal has the Digital Nomad visa for 1 year renewable. That requires employment in the US (or elsewhere outside the EU) so not the same as what my brother was doing but a good option as the min wage requirements are not high; could get by with what would be part time work on a US salary esp in tech.
I suspect that many of the housing problems in places like Lisbon’s old be solved if visas were enforced.
When I lived in Ireland I occasionally met people who would bounce between Ireland/UK and Schengen to reset their visa clocks (people from US, Canada, etc. can spend 3 months at a time, or 6 months a year, in Schengen, though eventually you might start getting tougher questions).
https://www.wired.com/story/a-rare-domestic-resurgence-of-ma...
be careful about what you eat and drink but it’s not like you catch these diseases just from walking around.
BAcK iN mY dAy a room in a house would cost $400-$500/mo in most places in the Montreal-Waterloo corridor. Now runways have basically been halved (0.3x'd?) as an extra allowance to the landed gentry.
One of the biggest beneficiaries of the recent tech boom happen to be the owners of land and buildings in and around the cities that tech companies prefer to be around.
Also a strong argument for remote-first companies.
Beautiful space, clear view of Mont Royal, right off the park, ideal location (IMO) in the plateau.
Granted, this was around 15 years ago -- I shudder to think what the now-likely Airbnb units in that building go for these days, probably $400/night.
They’re not the problem. You could not only ban all zoning/building restrictions but make it legal to shoot people who suggest or support them you’d barely begin to touch the problem.
Incentives regarding what to build (or when or if) are as big a piece of the puzzle. And the fact that the very simple and hugely microeconomic concept of marginal returns rarely (if ever) makes an appearance in this conversation is a serious indictment of the economic seriousness of its players when it comes to how supply gets built. Cost disease also matters in construction. There are lots of moving pieces.
Even when supplying isn’t socially restricted, there are market forces that contribute to rising costs.
What specific problem are you thinking of when you talk about market forces contributing to rising costs?
OK, density/character politics strike again, familiar story.
But, notably, you could fit at least 12 single family homes with lot sizes that are 100% entirely in character with the surrounding neighborhood. Quite probably 16. Possibly as many as 20.
What's going in? 6 big lots + mcmansions.
Not because the city made the developer do it. Not because the neighbors wouldn't allow matching density. The difference between 16 and 48 might be a land use restriction problem, but the difference between 6 and 16 doesn't seem to be. For some reason, this is what the developer would rather build.
The microeconomic detail of the developer's decision isn't public, but it's a very well known phenomenon in many markets that producers do not want to oversupply and often target production a bit short of demand. This may not be true when marginal cost per unit is small (you may as well try to saturate the market and then create new demand)... but that doesn't describe housing, does it? Per unit costs are always non-trivial. Trying to maximize per-unit profit by producing short of demand may not be the only strategy, but it's an uncontroversial and reasonably incentivized one.
And this wouldn't be the first time that I'd heard that mcmansions on big lots can be considerably more profitable per unit. So I'm willing to bet that when these 6 houses go to market, they will sell for 2-5x comparable surrounding homes. There's comparables within a mile on smaller lots with multipliers in that range. So they'll get the same return from the project on without having to build as many units. And that's just on this site. In the geographic area, they will be keeping supply constrained and therefore keeping the marginal return on additional units they build higher.
Phrases like "per unit profit" and "diminishing marginal returns" commonly show up in some popular economic discussion in other markets -- agriculture at least. But for some reason, they're rare when not entirely absent from popular discussion of real estate development and housing.
I suspect additional significant dynamics with materials costs, financing costs, and price signaling (as well as supply) are also in play, but I'm probably a damned fool for posting as much as I have in hopes of a better public conversation and policy more beneficial for all. Probably would be smarter to find ways to play the game myself, especially given that existing homeowners share many incentives with developers. Other holiday activities are more likely to bring emotional rewards. Still, maybe someone smarter than me will provide me with the opportunity to discover why I'm wrong and more optimism is appropriate. That'd be a fine Christmas gift.
I did that (sold everything, and went traveling), and now I own very little stuff. Apart from the mandatory laptop I need for work, and clothes, I couldn’t care less about everything else.
Before selling everything, I had a sick setup of dual monitors, and external DAC, speakers, headphones, keyboards, etc. Today, I need only laptop. I was considering getting one monitor, but can’t seem to justify the need.
It really teaches you how little material crap you need.
The bulk of what people own are things like furniture, artworks, plants, appliances, cookware… etc. Not particularly sexy, but essential for making a cozy place to live in the world.
Before selling everything, I’d constantly worry about whether I should get a third monitor, maybe try a curved one, get a new keyboard, upgrade the TV, get a new kitchen appliance, replace the sofa, etc. There’s always “newer and better” for everything.
Nowadays, I don’t care anymore. I bought a TV because we like watching movies, but I don’t care about the technology or the next shiny thing. Same with my computer, I work on a 14” laptop for the past two years, and I no longer feel like I should chase a better or newer setup.
I bet being able to spend time with the people I love the most is way more important that having the latest and greatest TV or fridge.
I eventually emptied it but I made the mistake is discarding books and trinkets that were actually memorabilia. I didn't interact with the trinkets or pull the books off the shelves. I didn't realize that just seeing them would trigger memories of where I bought them, who I was with, what I was into then, what songs were popular then, etc... so I regret getting rid of that stuff. But that was probably no more than 10 "book boxes" of stuff
So yeah, the rent on the unit might be more than your crap is worth, but having it all back in a blink (essentially) when moving back someplace has some intangible value too.
So, if you (somehow) don't have any friends, you won't be able to keep much anyway, except memories.
In the past months, my situation has gotten worse as I needed to tighten my belt due to my saving having almost completely melted. Hard but enriching times, I have now found a job after months of searching. The market in Europe isn't great these days. Back to hustling but without any regrets.
100% agree with OP, it was the experience of a lifetime for me. If I can give some additional advice, plan your finances. Even if you think a large sum will last you years and you're a bit lazy to plan it (as I was), don't be conservative with your forecast, plan large. Personally if I had to do it again, I'd try to keep half or one third aside for unexpected cases.
Also, I'm 42 and retired :) It's really easy to retire here when making software money.
It's the same thing as in New York, just different currency.
Locals inheritted their apartments from parents or granparents, those with good jobs get a mortgage or burn their salaries on rent.
And the rest lives with roommates. Or spends hours ona bus or train to work.
Hence the fertility crisis in Central Europe: people dont want to have kids when they struggle with rent.
In Central Europe there is the saying that prices are western, but salaries are eastern.
Propert also gets bought by foreign investors like in Canada.
I’d assume that salaries in Prague are higher than in the Czech Republic as a whole.
Back in the day, I had saved enough to take a nice 3 month leave of absence from work to do some travelling. Nudging my spreadsheet around, I tried replacing my rent, utilities etc. with the cost of a storage locker, and suddenly my “how long can I go for “ number shot up to over a year.
It changed my whole approach to life in my 30s, and it was a good 15 years before I committed to living in a single place long term again.
While working, I’d pick up a cheap room in a shared house for a few months.
These days I’d just stay remote. Maybe upgrade by a few dollars a night for A/C, reliable power and good internet.
God it must be nice to be in a position where you can afford to just be like “ok my partner and I are just going to travel for four years, and after that, idk, things will work out somehow.”
At the time the job was so boring, going nowhere, pretty easy.. I would do anything to go back in time to that role tbh..
I loved every second of traveling, and met some cool people, but none of that helps me find work now.
If you're a shy introvert, and struggle with social situations.. and you currently have a job, I'd advise to keep the job, even if it's not great, and try get something else lined up before leaving.
I have so many mental issues now (low self esteem etc)... therapy would probably help, but now I have no money sooo... I'm stuck in a loop of unemployable, no help due to no money, no money due to no work etc.
.. don't be me
my strategy was to look for jobs in the places i wanted to go to or take remote job offers and then visit or move to the places of my employer.
that is what allowed me to spend a year in new zealand for example.
that's where i learned that new zealand is not a good job market. that's why i left again. i only got there because pike programmers like me were not easy to find.
what are your options now? are you looking for remote jobs? why do you think you are unemployable? can you use your time to improve your skills? feel free to reach out in private if you like to chat. email is in my profile
I'll give you an email later. Thanks!
However, living beyond your means and buying luxuries you can't actually afford, and living a lavish lifestyle is entirely a personal decision. the problem with living paycheck to paycheck is that life happens. you get into an accident. there's a fire. your dog gets hurt. you get laid off, through no fault of your own. the company just decided to downsize. and now, because you don't have any savings, you can't absorb that loss, and then you're out on the street. homeless. hopefully not literally, there's a grace period before you're kicked out. but food and shelter aren't as solid as they were before. your life could become very difficult. all that hardship was an avoidable problem with an emergency fund because you weren't able to not doordash dinner.
At least have a plan first and make sure you understand visas. I have fiends who sold up everything and moved to Switzerland only to be turned back at the airport because they didn’t know they couldn’t just move their life there unemployed
I've heard some terrible things about how vulnerable those are to theft / squatters.
I’m not sure what factors make it that way, but my experience tells me that it is true.
> every ingredient imaginable available globally
is utterly false. My wife and I have been traveling in Europe for the last couple of weeks. We've had maybe three or four meals in restaurants, and mostly gone to grocery stores and cooked in our Airbnbs. The array of (only) locally-available breads, pastries, meats, cheeses, wines, yoghurts - heck, even breakfast cereals - is incredible, and of fantastic quality. We just traveled <100 miles, and are sad we can't find our favorite cheese from the last spot (the visually-similar one here is a pale reflection), but the sausages we bought last night were outstanding. Virtually none of what we've bought are anything we've seen before - like, there are global-commodity brands, too, but we're avoiding them: trying new things is the point of traveling!
By the way, very little of this is in speciality shops, and none of it comes at a high price. We're going to normal-people shops (boulangeries in France count as normal-people shops) - even some of them chain stores - and paying way less for groceries than we would in the US. (Seriously, way, way less - even before adjusting for the "nice-cheese premium" at Whole Foods, or wherever.)
Again: if you don't like trying new foods, it's fine. I'm not trying to change your mind. It's just, fuck off with your ignorant opinions about how the world works, and the judgemental attitude about what other people enjoy doing.
There are plenty of dishes which can't be easily replicated outside their host country, either due to quality ingredient access or skill.
In my state the health insurance marketplace only has 'bronze' plans that are in-network only (with mediocre options) and high deductibles, it costs 6-800 for individual and close to 1500-2k for a family.
The United States has rigged the employment market to forever keep you dependent on a corporate employer until retirement. Now these same companies are taking away remote work, forcing people close to expensive and increasingly annoying cities like New York City, where the median one bedroom is one million to buy.
So, for giving your time to a company, your reward is never being able to be fully independent without huge risk. Healthcare is the Company Store Voucher of the modern era.
Has anyone else considered leaving the United States long before retirement age?
Last time I went to the ER, the wait was 10h for kidney stones. Thankfully I passed out for 4h in the waiting room from the pain and the stones passed by the time I saw a doctor, so all they did was send me home.
My family doctor died 10 years ago and I'm still on a list.
I remember contrasting that with my US experience at the same time, where a 10 minute consult with a doctor cost 600USD. I had a really obvious ear infection, just needed some antibiotics, but he must have seen me as a cash-cow and ordered a ton of unrelated blood tests that were pointless since I was flying out the next day. I walked away feeling like I'd been scammed.
(In Australia a doctor's visit is under 30USD, blood tests don't cost much either)
Your brother was very lucky, or this is fake.
Of course, as with most things, government in South Africa is basically jealous of private medical insurance here and is trying to destroy it because public healthcare is a failure here. We really need to add a third item to this list: Nothing in life is certain, except for death, taxes and the government fucking up everything it touches.
COVID was a big one; lot of doctors decided to just retire at once. But primary care physicians are facing issues of the workforce aging out. I think about 18,000 of the 48,000 primary care physicians are set to retire by 2030, but we only add in about 1600 new primary care physicians a year. So by we'll be down by 8400 primary care physicians by 2030 and then however many years it takes to back fill to 2024 levels.
Meanwhile Canada's increased it's population from 37 million in 2019 to 41 million in 2024, with projections of us hitting around 43 to 44 million by 2030.
Most of it stems from the fact that lot of doctors don't want to be primary care physicians. The hours aren't terrible but the pay is low good compared to their specialist care counterparts, and they have far more administrative overhead then any other specialty. And often the work is miserable and thankless. I can't remember who said it but IIRC family doctors have the highest burn out rate out of all physicians.
This is all third hand information so take it for what it's worth, and I'm assuming that I've got an overly simplified view of the issue. Someone in the medical field could probably answer better then me.
Sometimes there are information gaps between their capacity and the provincial bureaucracy.
Platforms like Gusto, etc. make it so even small businesses can offer benefits and insurance like bigger companies do.
I went though various big and small employers plans, several states' exchanges, and none were nearly as good as doing the legwork to get benefits setup for my own company. Now I choose.
Is Gusto for stuff like that? Single member LLCs?
I disagree, I think it's there job to help you reduce your taxes, if they're able to do so legally. I'd look for accountants who think so too.
The minimum payroll is defined by the minimum wage in your local area, keep in mind you can also choose how many hours you work.
One step further, being your own doctor when ever possible is even better. Bring out the rusty knife for surgery, a club for anesthesia etc. most surgeries are not rocket science.
Trust me, you want modern medicine, the kind that comes from factories and hospitals. Not what you can cook up in your backyard.
Modern medicine is truly magical, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. We just need to make sure it doesn't bankrupt us to get it.
Assuming that you have done your homework and that you are right. ( a lot of especially young people think that things are magical now, while IMO some things have regressed) .
>We just need to make sure it doesn't bankrupt us to get it.
Why shouldn't a motivated/intelligent layman try and get hold of those devices and learn them? Yes things can go wrong, but what _real_ suggestions you have for people to get procedures done, safely AND reasonably priced?
"Why shouldn't a motivated/intelligent layman try and get hold of those devices and learn them?"
Why don you buy a typewriter and write Shakespeare?
You really just assume that you, untrained and unexperienced would be better than a trained professional? You would really cut open your partner or child, cut out a section of their bowels, sew them back together, and know all the right drugs to give and have the half million dollar anesthesia machine? Do you have the MRI machine you need to diagnose this?
It's the same reason we don't just let anyone work on airliners.
Someone who thinks they can do this is dangerous, and borderline psychopath. I'd encourage them to watch one live surgury first. Saying you can fo something like this without even seeing it once is why this shows too much unfounded confidence. Yikes.
Can tell right away that you aren't too bright. It's attitude like that that gives rise to guilds.
Are you a barbarian from the middle ages?
Makes me curious how much marketplace costs vary per state?
In any case, as another person pointed out, the ACA plans also provide very high premium credits for low income households, covering up to ~80% of the costs (from what I've seen). But this also varies by state, I think.
Yes. I'm American but was born in a small country in Eastern Europe. I was planning on moving back during the pandemic, however I was presented with some job prospects I couldn't reject and my move was delayed. But I do plan on retiring in my hometown within two years. There is universal healthcare which sucks for the most part, but private insurance is extremely cheap (compared to the US) and I could retire more than comfortably with my current nw. And by 'retire' I don't mean stop working, I mean I'm going to work on whatever I want.
And to your original point about healthcare, it is the absolute single reason for why I did not take any sabbaticals or long term leave even while burned out, for my insomnia during layoff seasons and generally for my job related stress.
I decided to learn from their experiences and GTFO while I could. I miss my family and friends dearly, but it’s a massive relief (and privilege) to be able to get the care I need and not worry about whether the cost is going to bankrupt me.
It’s not all smooth sailing, though. The immigration agency here (AIMA) currently has 300,000 cases in the queue. It’s so difficult to get an appointment that people are making hundreds of calls per day, standing in queues for hours only to not be seen, and filing lawsuits.
Most people here make about €1200/mo and there’s a severe housing crisis that I have contributed to with my presence. The influx of people like me with vastly higher purchasing power is creating resentment: the far-right party quadrupled (5% -> 20%) their seats in parliament by running against immigration.
Having said that, I do love it here. I’ve been considering blogging about my experience since there’s a dearth of clear-eyed information from real people who moved to Portugal and aren’t selling something.
Anyhow, I’m happy to share more info and resources with anyone who wants to learn more. Please feel free to reach out - my contact info is in my profile.
I have Portuguese friends who relocated to the US (for the salary, rest assured they own homes there to go back to). They're saying there are waits and quality issues.
It’s a breath of fresh air. I’ve had to wait a week or two here and there for exams and tests, sure. My preferred hospital system has a great app where I can book doctor appointments (€15) and see results as soon as they’re available. The system knows what my copay is and I pay it on my way home. That’s the end of it; there are no inscrutable bills in the mail months later for hundreds or thousands.
Here’s an example: due to family history, my doctor recommended an MRI. When she saw my horrified face she told me not to worry. I booked it, got a text from my insurance company a few days later with the approval, and had the exam a week after that. The results were available in the app soon after, including the raw images (not that I have the training to interpret them).
My copay for the MRI was €50. I pay €80/mo for the best insurance available. I’ve never had a claim denial and have never interacted with my insurance company.
Also, for those who require plans similar to the one previously provided, COBRA (18 months) is decent -- expensive but presumably less expensive than "equivalent" in the marketplace if we're talking about a good corporate plan.
Just that COBRA costs quite a lot.
A lot of people would be better off doing "intra-preneurship", meaning trying to innovate and strategize within their current company to make the job more fun, gain more autonomy, and advance their career prospects.
Or, if you work at Google, push for a new chat app. It’ll probably be approved.
The manager was sharing how challenging it was for his team to debug a certain type of code that they were responsible for. Without missing a beat, this very senior leader replied: "What do we need in order to make it fun? What kind of tooling or other improvements would make it enjoyable and easy?".
I'm paraphrasing because I can't recall the exact words, but I was flabbergasted to hear how he framed the problem as a lack of "fun".
Interactions like that are why I left NVidia with enormous respect for their managers and not just the very bright individual contributors I had the privilege to meet.
I bet people who have been on the inside can guess who the very senior guy was. Absolute legend.
Frankly, starting every other year on a completely new application/system does not sound so much fun to me, now that I am programming for more than four decades.
Um, you're being sarcastic yeah? (just checking) ;)
You do realize there are all sorts of reasons why people leave a job, right? I left Qualcomm perfectly satisfied with my managers and coworkers, too.
If somebody always leaves because of being unhappy with their coworkers, they may want to do some introspection to find out what those disagreements have in common.
No worries at all. Asked because the comment about the manager asking how to make it "fun" could also have been read along the lines of "see how out of touch the managers are", and I wasn't sure which meaning you were going for. :)
But there are also many workplaces that are more human, and run by people who you can build a psychological trust and rapport with. In those cases, there are opportunities to propose improvements, or push for pauses in feature work for support work. It’s not every day, and you can’t always change everywhere, but often management is receptive if you can sell it. This is how you start to build greater autonomy and a bit of fun into the workplace.
It takes a certain level of trust, but starting with tasks that vaguely fit the below tend to work well - start with something focused clearly on the business, not your own person feature ideas.
“Debugging/deploying/verbing situation X takes 0.5 man-sprints every sprint (across the team). If we can spend 2 sprints with 2 engineers to do X, we can cut this down to 0… during [time of year, eh holidays], our feature work slows down because people often take vacation. Can person and I work on this?”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/antonyleather/2017/09/05/amd-ry...
ftfy
My current employer, Google, seems particularly amenable to internal entrepreneurship. After all, they're essentially paying you not to create new external businesses.
Whereas working for a big company, you have a fairly reliable shot at bringing in a decent income with some stability.
Nothing is guaranteed of course.
Also feels like chasing a lottery win. Some folks might be chasing a financial safety net first that is smaller, because the variables and formula of everyone's life in what they have to take care of is valid.
I'm very happy for people who are able to swing for the fences, and also happy for the people working on getting more hits to bigger hits to swing for the fench. I know the latter is a much more sure way to get an outcome to have time freedom to really swing fences.
Everyone does what they best can do, if there's not an option in front of them at work, some people have to try to create the option themselves if it's not geographically accessible.
Assuming that's in an environment where it's possible (no shitty office politics, etc), the monetary returns from that ain't gonna be competing to a succesful project. Nor is the freedom and satisfaction ever going to be the same. And of course all progress in that front, is a round of layoffs or a change in management away from being nulled.
So, it's a safer path (as much as being an employee is safe these days), but not achieving the same thing.
Companies can promote you every 1-2 years, but you need to start that clock.
And it's not even "give 1x work -same as before- and take x1.5 money" but more like "give 1.5x work and take x1.5 money" at best (and usually less): more responsibilities, more stress, and more work time.
This is exactly my case.
Here are my w2 compensation (salary+bonus+rsu) changes YoY working at $Yelp and $Grab:
2025 35.96% (projected)
2024 20.77% (projected)
2023 30.39%
2022 -0.65% <- promotion
2021 34.25%
2020 65.06% <- job change (December 2020; 2020 had a big jump due to unemployment in 2019)
I don't think my work hours, responsibilities, or work stress has any connection to my compensation or career growth, primarily due to the "work smart, not hard" thinking.
Even if you have zero promotions or changes in responsibility, RSU grants compound, even if your salary increase by only 1-6% (like mine did)
Or you manage to move into those staff/post-staff positions but those are very few, hyper competitive and during rounds a layoffs you have a huge target on your back.
Realistically it's not a bad problem to have.
I'm no where near making a capped IC amount but if someone were in this position you really only need ~5-8 years of working to pretty much set yourself up for life financially if you keep your living expenses reasonable.
Im still earning way less than what I see reported on Blind and what my coworkers make.
3 orders of magnitude is 1,000 times larger, so $100,000 salary would become $100,000,000.
Never going to happen.
If that isn't exponential growth, idk what is.
RSU values compound.
Once they vest, you can sell them to match snp500 past the 4 years.
Also, within companies, you need everyone’s unanimous permission to do anything.. if a problem is big enough, the team would do it themselves. If the problem is too small, the team won’t integrate.
First startup went nowhere and took on a contract role after 9 months. Then tried another startup with a co-founder I met at one of the startups where I worked in the interim. About 6 months building something awesome, but no commercial path. Spent 1 month with him and another co-founder on a fintech product but realized much faster that once again that there was no viable go-to-market strategy. Started another company and built a product that seemed like it had legs. We had one early user that absolutely loved the product and we thought all we needed was to find more users like her. Turns out that she was a false signal because we never found another user like her and I'm about to shut that one down after almost a year to avoid DE franchise fee next year.
If anyone is in a situation like this/thinking about doing something like this, I've gathered some of my lessons learned: https://chrlschn.dev/blog/2024/12/lessons-learned-from-worki...
If I had to sum it up: always build the minimal thing that can be "sold". Use AI to build the dirtiest MVP as fast as possible. Even better if your "MVP" is a deck and you can get people to put money down to wait. Figure out your GTM and messaging with that deck. If you are an engineer, you must resist that urge to build until you're sure you can find enough people that have this problem and want to pay you to solve it. Don't work with a non-technical co-founder if they claim if you build it, customers will come. Don't work with a non-technical co-founder that can't demonstrate an ability to sell. If the vibes feel off, get out fast. Don't form a company with a co-founder until you absolutely have to (like your personal life, don't get married until you're absolutely sure).
Lots of mistakes and lessons learned during that time having founded startups that went nowhere, been an employee in startups that went nowhere, and left startups that are actually crushing it. I have seen a big swath of the gamut at this point with some regrets in retrospect.
Having learned many of the same lessons as you I can 100% backup everything you said in your “sum it up” paragraph!
The only caveat I would add is to the “make an MVP with AI”. I think MVPs generated directly out of ChatGPT/Claude are so easy now (or at least it can appear so on the face of it) that many people are just barely going beyond that - but to any experienced eye, that approach is quite transparent and can look very low-value (even if the idea is actually a good one).
Now if that person is a skilled salesperson then that might work.
But, for most people, I think it’s still very important to demonstrate good instincts, taste and strategic/commercial understanding when building such an MVP. And that means editing and shaping the output just enough to meet your vision for the product. So to agree with you - definitely, 100%, use AI as much as possible - but don’t assume that you can put zero work in on top and have that MVP be effective. Because the 10 year old down the street has the exact same tool as you - so if you are just relying verbatim on that tool’s output- it’s going to be hard to stand out.
I’d still definitely agree to spend as little time as physically possible on the MVP - with the above caveat.
Having said all that… a lot of historical wisdom on the topic of MVPs has been turned upside down since gen AI became mainstream, so on the flip side you could argue: create 1000 MVPs in an hour, publish them all, see what generates interest…*
Hmm.. I think I just argued against my own point.
* (I’m not really seriously suggesting anyone do this, but I’m also not entirely discounting this as an approach either…)
> Both your current projects look extremely impressive and polished. And viable!
> Now if that person is a skilled salesperson then that might work
I had a non-technical friend recently spin up a full blown startup with customers using nothing but Claude + Replit (not plugging, but just sharing to show that it's real: https://bullship.co). He came up with the idea after talking to a friend and finding that indeed, the market had only two major competitors who both charged too much for many smaller customers.
The code is throwaway in my book, but it's enough to validate the idea by actually getting people to pay for something they can use. It won't scale, but that's fine; by the point that he needs it to scale, he'll be able to hire people with more skill to fix or rebuild it.
You also have 20 different icons, that is so confusing for the user, get rid of most of them and just keep maybe 3 or 4.
It's not an itinerary generator; it's a replacement for people who use spreadsheets to plan meticulously. Definitely not for everyone!
Build only after customers have thrown money at you.
As it’s at that point you have enough clarity and specificity to build.
This advice is better if you have 10k twitter followers. For example I'm building something cool, a no-code visual regression tool. I don't have any real network. Besides cold outreach (and hn, ph), what else is there? Would love to know what you recommend.
If you want to make money (at least break even the opportunity cost of a programmer), you need to work backwards: build things that you will be comfortable to pitch to your connections. Selling home-made chilli sauce to friends&relatives is unironically a better business model than building an app for most people.
Stuff I build for fun, I generally just open source. If there is an audience, you can always build a commercial model later.
> For example I'm building something cool, a no-code visual regression tool.
Basically understand how your solution fits into that market and how you'll differentiate and make money.
I fully agree that you should try to sell the thing first, because a good chunk of the people who might want such a tool could already have the savvy required to bolt together the relevant open source and off the shelf building blocks.
Just be realistic with your expectations and don't quit your job until you know that there are customers willing to pay.
some time ago i skimmed around notion of Wardley maps and bookmarked it but did not pay (enough) attention. The other day there was another post on the topic, now with some basic resources, and i got hooked.. and read half of that book [0]. But right now have nothing on my mind to play with. May be that is a way? Map-and-try-predict the battlefield (needs lots of reconnaissance and "feeling" of the "landscape" and what-else-is-there). Mail me if you want a sparing partner - i want to learn this technique. But Anyway, have fun.
[0] https://feststelltaste.github.io/wardley-maps-book/#_the_fir...
(IMO, read chapter 2+ then 3~4 first, then restart from beginning)
Customer don’t exist in hn, ph, twitter, they exist in their own offices, on Zoom, and your local coffee shops.
I've had 10ish face to face conversations with people, people who've sold significant companies / engineering managers at FAANG's.
My competitors all require code, mine doesn't.
I threw up a sign up page on https://shutr.app if you're interested. Maybe it goes somewhere, maybe it goes nowhere. But I believe in it, and it's useful for me.
My guess is, you’re selling to the individual devs at the smaller places. Talk to them and their managers. If they want to buy, they’ll buy with what you have already.
I misread “personal wife” (in Kripky’s voice from big bang theory) and after I was done chuckling, I started thinking of something funny to comment about the other types of wives there are… then reread your comment and… yeah.
So yeah, in many ways, it is just like a marriage when you formally create a company with a co-founder. Don't do it unless you need to and if you do, make sure that you can get your assets back if you are bringing existing assets to the table.
I’ve slowly spent all my savings, moved back in with my folks, and still don’t have a job. It’s rough. I have no idea what I wanna do in life. So I decided to join the navy recently, to give me the next 4 years to figure it out.
If yes, you just might be depressed or haven't realized that a job might be shit anyway.
If no, interesting though that you are aware of hn (i have to assume a certain interest because i know plenty of software people avg ones, not being aware of hn at all).
But hf at the navy.
I was in the army before uni - it was grueling but awesome. You'll find your way fren
I had contract work, then couldn't get a tech job a couple years ago after a lot of applications. Completely broke. Drove down the road and felt kinda foolish seeing people paying less but decent money for non-tech. got fast food / hospitality worker. Low stress, physical work. Can't imagine where I'd be if I didn't.
I kind of get it though, you start doing something else then you don't have much time and energy to improve on what you want to do (such as tech) for a while, a recipe for people to get trapped, unless you can save money and reclaim time somehow to improve, or the supply/demand shifts..
anyone could fail at anything, all I know for certain is the worst thing a person can do is nothing.
If I was unemployed my living costs would be far, far below average, even allowing for the "it's expensive being poor" factors. Even when I've been in low pay jobs I've lived on very little and definitely didn't feel like I had budget for "travel" or other non-essentials.
As an employable person without work, before I reached negative bank balance I'm pretty certain I would have found a crappy job to at least slow the decline and buy more time. I can't see from this story why that hasn't been deemed necessary here.
The average person has a job and income. What's the average for a person taking extended time off?
Signed, someone who only feels "normal" while sticking to a restrictive diet... and therefore is seeing their gastro next week to discuss switching to a different Crohn's treatment :P
You can attempt to fix it by taking NAC which is an amino acid with no side effects for $20 a month or so. Usually you don’t need to take it continuously, just in regressions.
It is frequently misdiagnosed as the other more serious/intractable things you’ve mentioned.
Which is all to say... there are so many ways your gut can make you miserable, and they rarely get better on their own. Absolutely worth checking out if you can.
In some parts of the internet, Vitamin A is theorized to not be a vitamin but a poison.
Auto-immunity is likely related to biofilms in the intestines and plant defense chemicals such as lectins in combination with leaky gut.
Try looking @ cabbage juice for your Crohn's. There are YT videos about it.
I guess "leaky gut causes autism" is more exciting than "Crohn's can give you eczema and uveitis" :P
It's surprising this is not more widely recognized. The majority of corporations need help configuring existing software, not developing and marketing novel software. Those new opportunities come and go. If you want stability, get a job in IT.
1. Inflation was significant. 150-250k is just the cost of a white collar with experience. 2. The skills required to be a top software engineer have increased. The field is much more competitive and has some extremely productive people at the top. 3. A significant number of my peers in software seem to think they can earn very high salaries forever, while working mostly remote, never touching weekends, never studying. That cannot continue forever. 4. Most engineers do not have any risk tolerance, and are not navigating the "7 years of plenty" for the "7 years of famine".
So what happens? Maybe inflation lowers everyone's standard of living, but they keep jobs, and nothing dramatic happens. Maybe there are big layoffs and rude awakening? Maybe it's the bottom 50% of quality that gets hit hard, and everyone else is fine?
I didn't make that much (but also don't live in the US). For some time I was living on about 5% of my income and saving the remaining 95%.
There is your answer. The cities where you can make 400-500k are at least 2x the cost of other US cities.
Half a million dollars a year is a lot of money even in the expensive cities.
If you make that much and don't save a significant part of it, you're rather lacking in foresight. Go talk to the people earning five times less who live in the same city!
Absolutely. But depending on your perspective it may seem like an unfathomable amount of money where you start to drive lambos and have a private chef. It's not.
> If you make that much and don't save a significant part of it, you're rather lacking in foresight.
Agreed. I expect them to max their tax advantaged accounts, have significant equity in their house > 1.2 M house. Maybe have a rental property.
> Go talk to the people earning five times less who live in the same city
100k in SF or Manhattan? Sure that exists. But in some ways nothing lower than that exists. Anything lower is likely:
- an immigrant living a similar life style as their home country, which would not be accepted by the native population. (Many tenants in one apartment, possibly not legal housing, etc).
- workers who commute from a neighboring city.
- Students who are poor on paper, but have a financial safety net through parents.
Any estimate on the value creation from building that home vs the $50k consumed?
This sounds great. My question is why should I have to work and pay for you to do what you want all day?
I do prefer living in industrialized society to subsistence farming and slavery, personally, so maybe let's try to keep the incentives in place and NOT copy the Soviets, yeah?
And implying that there's a way we're "meant" to live implies we were created by a conscious being with intent, and I think you'll find that's a controversial view
There’s a lot of different ways to live. Personally I like taking periods of voluntary unemployment to explore other interests. Finding a job after has never been a problem.
A large percentage of the population has at least some safety net. Probably the average 25 year old could move back in with their parents for a year if things got really bad.
What would you want for your own kids? 45 years of grudging corporate toil, then death?
What’s the point of become a wealthy and prosperous society if we’re so goddamn uncreative about how we live in it?
and that is what i want to give to my kids as well. not privilege. i want them to learn that not everyone has it as good as we do, and that we need to work in order to have a better life, and that we need to help others do the same. perhaps this is itself a position of privilege to be able to do that instead of living in a comfortable place in europe where my neighbors would like to go to to have a better life.
My Eastern European grandfather never finished high school, and his whole purpose in life was to provide opportunities for his kids. They worked hard and built good lives with the advantages he gave them. Now he’s in his nineties and one of his kids visits him basically every day. He seems happy.
He’s also outlived my English grandfather by almost ten years, but that could be coincidence or genetics.
And yeah, this is a very privileged take. Is there some other way you’d prefer that I use my privilege?
This essay is kind of radical but outlines a few amazing points of unstructured work time: https://www.palladiummag.com/2022/01/06/quit-your-job/
Since coming to CS my highs have been higher and my lows lower than in other disciplines. And I came late. I started grad school in my thirties. But something that I learned when I was young, from well before my time in CS is true in this discipline too: if you do good work, people eventually notice. There will be a snowball effect.
It’s true, it doesn’t work out for everyone. But nothing does. And if you don’t take the opportunity to do something difficult, you’ll never know if you could have done it. I personally could not live with that thought. Those who do not try cannot succeed. But those who try—and retry when things don’t work out—probably will not fail either.
Thanks for this energetic and super-true comment!
Even if OP finishes and decides not work in tech/IT for the rest of the life, having a CS background is VERY solid background for a looooot of jobs. Also, usually you get a good payment.
And never forget what MAdreessen said: "Software is eating the world"
:)
\s
There are roughly 1.5 million software developers alone in the United States. If you love computer science you will excel in this industry for many years after you graduate. Quit only if your heart is not in it, the worst people I've worked with in my 27 year career are ones who obviously went with this career only because it can be a decent way to make a living.
But worry not, if you are end up loving what you do you'll be great at what you do and people that are great at what they do will always be wanted.
People that actually enjoy writing software / solving problems are the ones that get ahead.
I hate to tell you this. But any job that pays as much as a software dev in the USA is going to have 50% or more people who do the job for the money. You can learn to love what you do. But when you're 18 trying to find out what to do, for a lot of people money matters most.
I love being a software dev. I got obsessed when in college, made a lot of pet projects just for fun, kept that energy up throughout my career till I got married and had kids, and I am so glad I made that choice. But if it didn't pay what I knew back in college it pays, I wouldn't have done the job.
I have been in it for the money and also in it because I like it. I don’t like it for 8 hours per day but I do like CS.
I don’t love it though, and have transitioned since. But having the skill, the background and the grit (due to not loving it), it’s awesome.
Just to give a more nuanced perspective. I think the whole love it or leave attitude is too binary.
The reason is, there are some skills which are highly in demand, and few people are strong in those skills. In particular, I am thinking of HPC engineering and cloud computing infrastructure engineering. Companies and institutions own large server fleets, we're talking hundreds or thousands of servers. They want whatever is running on those fleets to have high performance, security, and zero downtime.
This kind of work requires strong Linux systems administration and programming skills, an understanding of enterprise networking and storage technologies, confidence with at least one orchestration stack such as OpenStack or Kubernetes, and strong CI/CD and IaC skills (look up GitOps.) As a junior, you don't need to tick all these boxes, but people should be able to see that you're able to learn whatever you're missing.
These skills don't usually come directly from a computer science degree. However, a computer science degree is the primary way to get your foot in the door with building those skills. If you want a junior job in cloud computing and are cold-calling because you don't know anyone yet, then it will help if you have good marks in a computer science degree (although it's possible to prove your chops in other ways, like having a history of strong contributions to open source.)
Later, after you build some experience, and you prove that you can keep learning, you get the job done, and you can get along with people, you'll eventually have recruiters chasing after you, and companies willing to listen to whatever income you pitch to them.
The low end of lawyers is also way, way lower. Law in the US has a massively bimodal income distribution, way more pronounced than Tech with Finance / Big tech paying more. In law your new grads at big firms may pull $200k or whatever, but the median for the rest is like $50k.
It's pretty brutal if you're not top xy% of your class.
1) DO NOT GIVE UP 2) You don't need every skill the employer is asking for. What you need are the major skills the job requires and the ability to pickup the rest on the job. 3) Only apply for jobs where you are a good fit. 4) While job hunting, spend time each day learning a new skill. It can be a programming language, a technology, or something interesting. 5) Once you get a job, save lots of money. It helps you make it through lean times and sets you up for a nice retirement.
One last thing. If your depression does not let up after 6 months, I strongly recommend seeing a therapist and a psychiatrist. I wish you luck. Things will get better.
sure, 5 calls may be giving up to early. but 50? if i give up after 40 calls does that mean i haven't been trying hard enough?
You're just proving my point - you had to make 50 calls to reach "any licensed therapist" covered by your insurance.
Why do you think the other 49 weren't in-network? It's because, if they're good, they can make much more out-of-network, direct billing patients.
The (tech) job market is definitely not great at the moment, but I do think people are overstressing how bad it is a bit, and in any case these things are cyclical. I started a CS degree in 2003, just after the dot-com crash, and finished in 2007, just heading into the financial crisis. Both of those kind of cratered the job market for a bit, but it recovered.
If you are skilled, can talk to people and aren't afraid to put in the yards to prepare for interviews you'll do just fine.
You hone that skill, and it will shape your future, whatever field.
You'll never be jobless having that particular skill.
Don't give up.
Still, you have to do what is right for you. The downturn might end tomorrow. It might take a decade. Nobody knows.
I intentionally left to work on projects I wanted to pursue, built a startup that isn't currently covering costs (1 customer on an annual plan), lived in Thailand for 6 months (with kids going to to school there), the burn rate on return has taken it's toll (California)...but yeah recently put feelers out for potential work and see it's going to be quite the mission to find work (personally).
its money
It's absolutely wild to see people 1. with the privilege of having $80K in liquid savings to just... chill while unemployed, and 2. with the willingness and mindset that allows them to do that chilling without freaking out. Total Zen Masters you all are. I couldn't do it.
Every $10K I blew through while unemployed, I'd be thinking to myself: Accounting for time value of money, that's just pushed out my retirement date by 3 more months.
EDIT: I guess I should add that I'm married with a kid, since that obviously does affect the math on this one. Still, I don't think I'd change my opinion if I was single.
Nobody I know is leaving a $70k a year job to take a sabbatical. They're usually leaving a $400k+ per year job and there'll be another similar job waiting for them when they're ready to jump back in.
Kids are another huge factor that changes this. I don't think I've known anyone who's done something like this with kids in the picture.
What they don't tell you is that employers are suspicious if you are out of the job market for more than a year. And anyways, no, it doesn't make sense to stay at home and raise your kid, just pay for the childcare and get back to work as soon as possible. And they wonder why birthrate is tanking...
literally one of the first things "they tell you" (it's common knowledge).
Will there be though? I honestly don't know. I'm closer to that boat, I get (good) job offers every 3-6 months, but nonetheless, if I was laid off... I think that'll leave a pretty nasty mark on my resume, no matter the reason. I don't think I'd wait a year to start looking for jobs again. A big gap won't help either.
* Recruitment emails from top competitors I should say.
All in all though, it's not impacted my ability to re-enter the job market, though I must admit I did assume prior that it would.
This will obviously vary by job market, country and your own capability to sell yourself I imagine.
I took 6 months off last time I did a job switch. I had 10+ offers from top companies and not a single one of them asked me about the break or cared.
About a year ago we had an open position and hired SPECIFICALLY a person who took some time off after COVID. She was like "it was insanely stressful time and I need some time to regroup" and everyone who interviewed her was like "perfect, just perfect"!
That place ended up being a terrible place to work for a number of reasons. I eventually found a much better team who didn't question any of that. It was an entirely freeing experience. It truthfully would have been a liability to stay there any longer as the leadership and technical skills were not there. I left alongside many other people and haven't looked back.
Just about anything can be spun to a positive or at least neutral light.
We're usually too focused on finding the few people that meet our requirements and don't have the time to waste looking for red flags.
I took my first sabbatical at 25, with only a few years in the industry, making a lot less and I think $35k in the bank. Everyone told me I was crazy putting a gap in my CV, spending savings, etc. but I did anyway.
It was easily the best two years of my life, I travelled South America and Asia without a care in the world until the money was gone. Then I went back to work without an issue and have continued taking long periods off throughout my career. These days I'm a remote contractor, and even though I can and do work from anywhere I regularly still take months off at a time. I have a lot of savings too and a fully paid house in a country I love.
My point is that we create the anxiety for ourselves. A different lifestyle is possible if you make certain choices.
Kids + spouse changes everything.
My condolences to the writer because it sounds like he had a divorce, which changed one part of that equation.
Yep, I have have quit a perfectly good job to bum around Southeast Asia. Now that kids are in the picture being unemployed would be very stressful.
I did. Best decision of my career.
Same, although I'm not sure it's always a privilege thing, but also one's background. I've done pretty well for myself these last few years, and financially speaking it would not be the end of the world if I lost my job tomorrow. But I come from a working class family, and grew up with nothing.
I was raised and surrounded by family members who work a lot harder than I do for a lot less pay. They sacrificed a lot for me to go to school and get a good job, so if I were to lose it, the last thing I'd want to do is just chill for 2yrs even if I could afford to.
I was fortunate to grow up relatively (lower?) middle-class, but even then, we weren't exactly financially secure, and I still remember how bad things were during the Great Recession, even though I wasn't working at the time. My wife grew up in poverty, and even though we're both doing decently in our careers, I don't know if she'd ever truly be able to get rid of the worry and anxiety that something might happen and we'd end up homeless. Even if we suddenly won the lottery and ended up with $500 million, that fear would probably still be there at least a little bit. And like you said, that fear makes enjoying/being comfortable with unemployment impossible.
DUDE!!
Im older than you and I grew up poor.
Between my husband and I we have a little under half a million dollars in easily accessible liquid assets. I also have enough in my retirement accounts that I could definitely retire at 65 comfortably if I stopped contributing today (CoastFIRE).
I am just barely starting to feel like I'm financially secure.. like I don't feel it, but I logically tell myself that I am. I feel like I'm finally starting to believe myself.
now i am not exactly well off either. but i never felt i was financially insecure even when i was low on money. that safety net is always there, and having experienced it, i am comfortable trusting it.
Now I have a child and feel completely different. The moment she arrived I immediately felt way behind on retirement savings and stability and since then my #1 priority has been to catch up. I'm hoping that not long from now I'll be able to translate being more secure on paper to also mentally getting back the care free feeling I had before.
I also think in terms of retirement - it's not just savings being depleted, but it's active months I'm not adding to my savings. And I'm certainly not living off of 50% of what I make post-tax, so the burn rate becomes exceptionally high.
I was feeling close to burnout a couple years ago in my current job, but was lucky enough that they let me drop back to four days a week. And the company is fully remote, so I end up traveling about three months out of the year. I have a hobby that helps me meet people when I travel.
Maybe living overseas also helps life feel less like it’s passing me by.
Ideally I’d be able to take a few month sabbatical, now that I’ve been in my current role for 8+ years. Still working on that…
So many of these "I've been funemployed for 5 years" articles NEVER talk about the hidden asterisk that, well, actually, they have plenty of money and are just fine; they're just conventionally broke.
Alternately, they have very cheap tastes. It's entirely possible to live off of 15k per year while hiking the AT, there are at least 5 equivalent trails to hike globally.
I also travelled the world, but I did it as an ESL teacher. Nothing encourages you to integrate faster into a country's culture and learn the native language than actually working there, and you feel like less of a tourist.
You account for the time value of money, but not for the time value of time.
A week right now is worth more than a week 30 years from now. 30 years from now, your life might have changed beyond all recognition, or you might be dead.
Reasonable people can disagree over how to discount future freedom-from-work vs present freedom-from-work.
That said, I'm still largely in agreement with you. While there are a myriad ways to make more money, there's no way to make more time.
I used to be in the same boat. Somewhere in my 30s I realized I could fall back on my skills if it ever warranted. Now I am between jobs and considering not going back to work.
What I’m saying is that your life outlook shifts as you age and experience common life events
Your reply is cryptic and leaves crucially important details out.
OK, I figure I don't want to work anymore. Who pays my rent / mortgage? Who pays food, bills?
Take some time off and live off your savings.
If you want to start making money you go back to the workforce (e.g. fall back to your skills).
We still can't sit two years without a job though.
But I agree. Some funds to fall back on is critical. The amount is highly dependent on your situation and risk comfort level and can be argued back and forth but not having any puts you at the mercy of whatever your employer/manager decides. Or even you getting sick and unable to work for a while. And even if the former doesn't happen, the latter definitely will at some point.
Though I am reading some of these comments and wondering why they'd call losing a job an end-of-the-world scenario. I've always thought people on this forum are the type of working professionals that could afford to put away a few hundred dollars a month even if they're not on SV wages. Mind you, I am not talking about an amount of money to allow you to retire but just enough to get you going for a few months until you can figure something out. Even if married and with children. That just changes the math a little bit but not the approach. Is there something I am missing?
F YOU money is so that if your boss/employer/... pisses you off you can tell him "F YOU" and pack your shit and leave without a single worry on your mind
> The amount is highly dependent on your situation and risk comfort level and can be argued back and forth
Absolutely not - it is a simple math. If I spend $10k per month, I need $60k or $120k saved to have a cushion of 6 months (or 12 months). there is no argument, I said F YOU and I am now without a care in the world and can take my time to figure out what I am going to do next without needing to stay somewhere that makes me miserable (or same if I get fired)
> Is there something I am missing?
"According to a YouGov survey from May 2023, only 18% of Americans have savings between $1,000 and $10,000"
Now of course probably 2% of them or less are here on HN...
If my lifestyle currently is:
- summer vacay in Bali
- two ski trips, one US, one in the Alps
- eating out once per week
- daily Starbucks
- …
FU$ means I continue doing EXACTLY this, for 6/12/18 months.
Emergency fund would be I cut down all my expenses to a bare minimum until I find new source of income. Can’t say FU if I can’t go to Bali (I love Bali :) )
I agree with the zen masters description though. I wouldn't be so zen about it either.
> One in 10 consumers do not have any savings (12%) while a slightly higher percentage of consumers say they have less than $100 in their savings account (14%). A further 13% of Americans say they have between $1,000 and $4,999 in savings. Altogether, that means that half of all Americans have less than $5,000 to fall back on.
[1] https://business.yougov.com/content/46083-how-much-does-the-...
Except that me saying the amount is dependent on your situation is leaving some margin for if your child is special needs or you're going through a divorce or taking care of elderly parents or things of that nature where you'd probably want to decrease your risks by increasing the 12 months to 18 months to account for more unknowns that wouldn't apply to other people, for example. I do not consider it to be simple math nor a matter of an absolute right/wrong stance.
And we're not talking about wealthy people here but the ones who complain that there's nothing left when there's an interest rate increase. I don't know maybe it's the crowd I hang out with. Or maybe they are actually wealthy and just don't want to say it.
I have that fund now and it completely changes how you approach work.
It's going to go away once we buy a house, but my top priority will be to restore it after the deal's done.
Good on you for paying their way through college; that will help a ton.
I would personally be extremely content living a very spartan life. If there were a barracks type arrangement where I just get a small room with desk and bathroom, and all food preparation were handled for me for a reasonable fee, access to a gym, and solid internet I'd be all over it.
But the minute you enter a romantic relationship, that generally stops being an acceptable living situation.
Biological answer: women had to hold on to resources to care for their ofspring, so it's hardwired.
Politically incorrect answer: they are self entitled nutcases. If you think you are spending significantly more than what you think you can afford, dump your wife if she doesn't agree to downgrade on the lifestyle to save on expenses
I have easily enough to live a whole year or more without needing to work, but I would never consider that for even 1 second, tbh. Never even thought hard about why, it's just not an option to me.
First of all your situation and context is unique. Everyone has their own circumstances (including aging parents).
For many, even perhaps for you this is a reality. However for others its a fear of worst case scenario as a protection mechanism that served you when you were at a certain stage of life and many just kept it as a habit.
For a single grad without responsibilities after 3 years of working at a FAANG this fear of the future shackles them to explore and take calculated risks.
I've seen people with $20k in their savings account going for 1 year sabbatical describing it as transformational.
Its all priorities I guess and sometimes we can't say for every case that its actually the lack of agency that is holding you back.
Only you know for sure internally when reading this, if its making you uncomfortable and uneasy and if you have an emotional reaction.
For some, as mentioned its a reality and they are fully content with the limitations that they have and choices that they made in life that are now irreversible.
Up to everyone individually to evaluate their situation, however what is important to understand is that whether its really your context that is holding you hostage or just your fear.
This would have the absolutely opposite effect of that, I was in this mood and it made getting a job impossible because I'd appear too stressed and too depressed on every single interview. Sometimes relaxing and letting it be is just better and a lot more productive.
"Delaying retirement" is absolutely an option - and not a bad one while with extremely flexible financial needs - but it's one to take eyes open.
It sounds a bit, like retirement is your only goal in life.
Personally I am not sure, if I make it to retirement (WW3 or whatever), so I try to enjoy the ride a bit more.
Also yes, I do pratice Zen meditation. But I doubt I am a master ..
Oh for sure. And no, I am not doing that. But I am not optimizing for my retirement. I optimize for the now. If the now runs smooth, the momentum will also provide enough money and other support later on. But doing a shitty job will bring me a shitty life for sure. Taking a break from that, gave me new and better perspectives, than beeing trapped in a tight routine. We can compare in the future.
I recently went on a very personal international trip that wiped all my savings. I was able to reconnect with my culture and I made two friends who I cherish so much. The kind of friends that I would drop everything to help. I didn't have to go on these trips, I could have kept saving. But I don't regret that experience at all and it changed me immensely.
If nothing else, pulling money out of investments to fund expenses due to lack of income feels like robbing myself of future gains.
That's on you. Stress is something you generated, not something that exists in the world.
stress is also created by other people who insist that i am doing something wrong, and don't respect that i have a different opinion on that matter. people who have expectations that i can't or don't want to meet.
i did learn to avoid stress, even as i live in countries where there is no safety net. i am out of work now, and while putting in applications day after day is tiring, i am not stressed. but i come from a country that has a strong safety net, and i know that if i have to i can always go back there. i grew up with that safety net, and i know that i'll never be homeless unless it's by choice. that alone removes a major stress factor. i don't know how i would feel without that safety net.
How much you care about other people’s opinions is, again, entirely up to you.
Sometimes life hits you like a truck, and you get trapped under that truck for a really long time. Then, once you get flung in the ditch and think you just had the most horrible N months/years of your life, a whole colony of fire ants starts crawling on you and pulling you apart.
So, yeah, sometimes certain actions could be a sign of privilege, sometimes, they could be the tiny thread giving a person a lifeline.
Being able to only optimize for proximity to retirement could be a more "privileged" state to be in, than having 80k in Canada in certain contexts.
That changes the equation altogether.
IDK I have the same thought.
Even with a wife and kids, all that means is that you have more household expenses. Just means you’d need more money in said emergency fund.
1. You may have zero income tomorrow. Plan for that, especially if you have a family. Tech companies pay good money, and you need to stash that money away while you have an income because there are pretty good chances that some day you'll wake up and not have a job.
2. You need to foster the professional relationships you make while doing your day job, because almost nobody is going to be working at that company until they die or retire, which means everybody is going to be looking for work. When it comes time to look for work, you will want a network to reach out to. When you find yourself in a position where you have something great and you need to hire great people to help you achieve your vision, you will want a great network to reach out to. Take time to look after the folks you care about. Pay special attention to the humans you have done great work with. Those people are probably going to be more valuable to you personally and professionally than the company you are working for, and the same goes the other way for them looking out for you.
This wisdom was later supplemented by a contractor we had hired at a different company, who came back to meet with us after we hadn't used all our paid hours and said "Look, I know you're upset that (some guy you loved working with) is no longer with us. We're also bummed about that. But we have done great work together as a combined team. Not as companies, but your engineering team and our engineering team. We hope that you will think about that when you need help with anything, at this company or in the future, just like we will think about you individuals when it comes time for us to solve problems that you would be good at solving."
Every time there is a layoff, I think about this nugget that Rex told me, and that supplemental anecdote, and every time they are just as relevant. This wisdom has saved me so much stress, and opened so many doors for me. I admit that it hasn't always let me take my unemployment completely worry free, and that I have made some desperate decisions while unemployed which I later regretted. That being said, I still think this is solid advice, not just for the tech industry, but for everybody everywhere. This is especially so if you are a humanist or are anti-bigcorp. It has helped me find peace with having to walk away from jobs when I needed time for me or my family, or when things just weren't working out. After the blood bath of 2023, I am living this advice more than ever, and the last few times I have wondered if I was on the chopping block, aside from the emotional response of visceral existential fears that come up in such cases, I've found peace in the rational knowledge that having planned for not having a job tomorrow, I can set those fears aside and look for the opportunity in my new circumstance.
American developers are staggeringly well compensated.
$110,140 is pretty damn good for a job you can do from home in an office, with minimal physical risk.
If you can't put together $80k in savings after a decade or so on a salary like that, you have a spending problem.
I was in a similar situation and I worked at a warehouse as a loader, then at a kiosk to sell toys, and then sold necklaces at a mall (none of them were my businesses, just worked.) And I worked as a mover. Many odd jobs but I never accepted being unemployed for 2 years while depleting my savings.
Whether it is a matter of being homeless or not, I can find 1000+ odd jobs that pay for something + food from Craigslist right now. This is the reason why you will rarely see an immigrant being homeless or being picky about the jobs they find. Staying unemployed for years until finding the "best job" is a very privileged mindset. 3 months in no job? Find something to float, don't wait until your dream job appears out of nowhere.
I survived with $1000 a month for a very long time (in America, the money I earned from my jobs) while paying for a room, eating + transportation. If I had 80k, I'd buy a cheap van, live in it for free, and eat the bare minimum nutrition I need ($150 a month). I can survive with 80 for over a decade easily. God knows what this person is doing with his money. I am certain he has parents that he can count on.
These posts are extremely bizarre.
Now, downvote me to hell.
It was sort of a dismal time in tech in general (dot-bomb) so I wouldn't have just taken a couple months to travel even if I could have afforded to do so.
It's doable for extending up to 3x of his runway.
This is because you won't get exactly 8% each year. For example, suppose the returns over a 3-year period are: 20%, -10%, 14%. In this case, the return over the whole period is 23.21% (= (1 + 0.20) * (1 - 0.10) * (1 + 0.14) - 1). On the other hand, a 8% return each year would have resulted in a 25.97% return over the whole period (= (1 + 0.08)^3 - 1).
I've seen quite a few one hit entrepreneurs lose it all chasing the next idea and never investing anything.
It was one of the best times of my life. Like the author, I focused a lot of entrepreneurship, my mental and physical health, and traveled a lot.
But unlike the author, I came back to the workforce. I don’t know what’s the end game for the author, but I kind of feel torn here.
On one side, I’d say that it’s way easier to focus on building a business when you don’t have a job. On the other side, not having money to live on would stress me so much that I’m not sure I’d be able to do sport or engage in hobbies, let alone build a business.
Also, keep operating costs super cheap so you can keep the side hustle going and watch it grow over years. Don't shut it down unless you have to.
To make $600/m you would have to invest $180k at 5%, so from that perspective you have created something valuable already.
His timing wasn't great. The tech job market is pretty dismal right now and will likely be dismal for a while. Unless we get back to a hot tech job market like circa 2020-2022 it's not going to be easy to find a gig after being out for 2 years.
did that include retirement savings? Are you behind or on track for when you're inevitably too old to work?
Being “on track” is kind of an illusion to me. I believe it’s impossible to plan for more than 2-3 years ahead, let alone 20. I live below my means, invest as much as I can while finding a healthy balance between enjoying the moment and planning for the future.
IBM did a restructuring of my division in mid-2018 and I got RIFed. I pulled UI for 6 months and then lived off of my savings for a while - I looked at it as a mini-retirement. it was really nice, and made me appreciate work more (I'd been getting burnout from the IBM job).
when it was time to look for work again, the pandemic hit and I had a few tough months. I onboarded at a place mid-2020 and am still employed at the same place to this day. cant say I feel valued by the employer but I enjoy my job, it's a bit less stressful than my previous job.
There are endless ways to do it. A way I did it was I moved to a cheaper country, started a business, learned a new language, met new friends, and eventually started a family.
Spending $80k in Montreal is the opposite of risk taking.
Perhaps if there was much to show for it, you would have a point. This guy did a lot right, has friends, is physically active, but none of that required spending down $80k.
jokes aside, sounds like both you and him have valid ways to spend your money. i honestly don't care which is right because either way you're gonna spend that 80k and will ultimately end up dead.
Someone else in this thread said it well. If you're unable to pipeline for a new job, you'll definitely be unable to pipeline to get sales.
$80,000 is a great down payment in most places of the USA. You could buy a large country home with a pool and a view in most places of the world with that money.
I like risk takers, but quitting your job and spending all that money isn't actually a risk, it's just kinda lazy.
I'm not trying to be mean. This guy's obviously doing a lot right. He has friends, he's physically active, he has hobbies. But none of these things requires spending down $80k with effectively $0 in income.
Maybe he reads this comment and it lights a fire under his ass. 2 years is too long to get going, bro. You gotta dial in, move faster, and make money in a few weeks tops, or just get a job and slow burn on the side.
I've been thinking of quitting with the assumption that my job skills will still be relevant in two or three years and that I have strong social skills that help stand out and a crowded worker field.
I just want to take care of some long-standing tasks, clean out my house, and enjoy waking up each day.
If I had that kind of money lying around I would move to another country, pay for my whole education, learn a new language and still have enough money for multiple full-time start-up attempts.
There's a reason people get paid $400k+/yr in SV. The place is expensive and you need to keep people there somehow.
$80k is more than the median annual rent on a three-bedroom house in San Francisco; if its "not even a year of rent", even in the "SV crowd", that's because of lavish personal choices, not location-based necessity.
> There’s a reason people get paid $400k+/yr in SV.
Yes, because the jobs paying that are highly selective and there is lots of competition for talent. The cost of living in SV is a consequence of the concentration of high-paying jobs, not its cause.
With that amount of money you can have an amazing life in so many places on this earth, and these people definitely have the resources to do that. Have these people never experienced life abroad? Quality of life is much higher elsewhere.
I have some friends who work, sometimes they work remotely from my studio and when they do zoom meetings, oh man, ugh...
I have been working on personal projects since.
I have personal savings to last for around 3-4 years.
Lately I have been stressing a lot, thinking about what would happen if I fail to make a single penny in upcoming years.
Reading your post was a breath of fresh air.
I'm looking a long way back to when I was in your position : I got fired about 10 years ago, after unrealistic expectations and mental health burnout led to me making regrettable statements to executives.
The entire experience and time since is far too large to encompass in a post. But perhaps my biggest takeaway after all this time is that most people waste a great, great deal of money frivolously. Having even an average income, more often than not, leads to a lifestyle where it's standard to buy a $50 version of an everyday item because it has a certain stamp and shiny packaging, instead of the $10 one that frugal people use. Going to the food markets with a comfortable income is a thoughtless experience of filling bags with items you like the look of, regardless of price or purpose. Tens of thousands are dropped on a whim for a change of travel-box (car). An executive spends more on daily coffee than I do on my total coffee+breakfast+lunch. The income finds a way to be spent, but the experience isn't necessarily that different.
I'll indulge in another edit-in point. Home economics. It used to be a school subject. People thought it was about cooking, and sewing. Millions of mothers and grandmothers from past generations know that basic cooking skills actually = a lot of money in the bank. The best food you ever ate, at half the cost, in perpetuity. Concepts like these, where you trade a % of your time for directly applicable, $-winning skills (as opposed to using salary to pay others) is a key necessity of living sustainably outside the traditional 40-hour-week employment system.
The best part is when you realise it's all the same. You'll job Here, or you'll job There. Everybody does 24hrs of something per day, and if you're smart, you WILL find your way to comfort. Perhaps on surprisingly less money than you thought. It will just take time and persistence.
And if not, well, the traditional job market always wants smart people too, sooner or later.
I don't see why a safety net wouldn't mitigate this risk in the first place, which would then allow for more people to take these risks and come up with great ideas as well
a.k.a. Digital Nomad
- Move to a low cost place where other indiehackers go: thailand, bali. - Start living in a cheap hostel with other indiehackers - Copy an existing app with lot of users and something that interest me - Start with the lowest price possible. Keep on adding features and introducing expensive plans - Non stop marketing on X, FB, Insta, reddit etc
As soon as you leave your job it is a ticking clock. Every minute is important. I know mental sanity is important but life of entrepreneur is not best one if you want one. It is risky. It is a grind.
Edit: thankfully after a year I got a new job, contract role. I have experience but no degree so harder for me.
I probably will continue bouncing back and forth for the rest of my career.
I have similar symptoms, and basically I can't eat anything with Peppers or Chilies. The whole fruiting family. So no paprika. You would be absolutely floored to find out how many things paprika is in. Basically every flavour of chip you like. Curries often have them too.
This philosophy may not be ideal for your circumstances. You already knew you had limited funds and no income. "Slightly better than average" is overspending.
So you found yourself with some safety net and are contemplating reinventing yourself in some way. Maybe working on a side project, or supplementing your skillset by learning something new.
My first and top advice is to move to a place where just breathing and thinking is cheap. Travel if you can (i.e. you're young, have no kids, no relationships, no obligations). The slow burn will alleviate the stress and the need to precipitate a decision. Nomadlist, Numbeo, and the numerous nomad blogs are your friends. Start working on your projects from there. Come back home when you have some feelers moving.
Second. If your runway is only a year or two, prioritize acquiring a skill that'll make it easy to find work by the end of the run. Take a course on something trendy or valuable. If you choose to work on a project, also consider it the demo you'll eventually present to companies you'll interview at if things don't pan out. If you have 3 or 4 years, consider that you actually only have 1 to get something up and running.
Third. Don't be too ambitious with your first project. Aim to build something that can sustain living in a place where it's cheap to just breathe and think.
Good luck.
Overall, I think for a tech worker, the real issue is that so many women will not date a tech worker to begin with because of the low social status associated with dating a tech worker. I've met thousands at this point and it's honestly made me regret joining this industry. I do not advocate for it at all.
I think the bigger hurdle with dating beyond that anyway is physical attraction. The bar for that is really high now. Being a rock climber only attracts certain types because rock climbing tends to have more lanky builds. You better hope you're attracted to women who only want to date slim built men. That is a niche woman. As well, you can't escape your baseline genetics like height, facial attractiveness, etc. People talk about rock climbers sleeping with each other all the time but it's mostly men who are rock climbing. There are some women but the ratio is 3:1 - which means you're 2/3 chance of not getting anywhere.
You're free to exist in the real world rather than some third wave feminism utopia.
So, what do I do now? * Household management: I handle cooking (about half), cleaning, shopping, finances, repairs—basically all the day-to-day stuff. * Supporting my wife: I act as her personal assistant. I write emails, grants, and curriculum; create her presentations and visuals; and handle whatever else she needs so she can focus on teaching. With my help, she’s raised over $100k in two years to support her program—not too shabby! * Pet parent: I’m a proud cat and dog dad. Side projects: I’m working on a web app that I hope will generate income someday. * Writing a novel: For the first time, I’ve moved past the endless planning stage and am actually writing! I’ve also got more ideas in the works. * Tabletop game design: I have about ten tabletop games in various stages of development, and a few are done. I’d love to get at least one published. A friend and I even created a tabletop game that teaches condensed matter physics (CMP 101 level) with funding from an NSF grant. It’s more of a euro-game than an edu-game, and we’re looking to publish it and maybe turn it into an app. * Self-care: Decades of work, especially in startups, took a toll on me emotionally and physically. Today, I'm more organized, more productive, more focused, and more motivated than ever. I have a lot of work to do to repair my health, but I'm working on it.
What I’m finally able to do: * Engage in emotionally rewarding activities instead of draining ones. * Pursue personal goals and dreams I’ve always put on hold. * Channel my energy into supporting my wife, which has made her happier and more fulfilled in her career—a first for her. * Be the master of my own destiny rather than living on someone else’s terms.
I do feel some anxiety about putting the financial burden on my wife. She understands and values the contributions I make to our household and her career, so there’s no resentment on her part. Still, I worry about what would happen if she lost her job or couldn’t work. I cope by focusing on the fact that the things I’m pursuing can generate income. If I channel my energy positively and healthily into these pursuits, I believe they eventually will.
If you can be fit and pursue arts or hobbies, you're already doing what people think they need to be wealthy to do, and most wealthy people are boring anyway.
Run a CRM pipeline to get a job and you will have one in a couple of months, then use the stability as a way to find customers for your next thing. If you can't run a pipeline for yourself, you won't be able to do it for a startup anyway. You're fine. Good luck.
you figure out how to contact each one of them and spend your days moving each one through the stages in the spreadsheet and adding to the companies column until your situation changes. that's how people who get multiple offers get them. they use this to make them happen. if you have 10-20+ companies, there's always something you can be doing to get one of them over the line. I used the streak crm as a gmail plugin, but you can just use a spreadsheet.
If you signup and want it free please just email me (listed on my profile). Currently asking $15/mo for the app
Be sure to have cell phone and Internet access and be not too far from a Walmart, a hospital, and, maybe, auto repair. In the US can get nice weather, usually not too hot or cold or too wet or dry, in the East at the latitude of, say, Kentucky.
In Maryland, Virginia, and DC, there is lots of Federal Civil Service employment, and the hiring is not based much on "who you know" but what you can do, education, experience.
You're making fun of your readers.
Somewhere you have hidden money or people that will help you.
The end.
Unfortunately I need healthcare. An ACA plan cost me $1200/mo. over COVID when I was out of work for two months. It was a complete panic. Just mortgage, utilities, food, and healthcare was almost $3,500 a month. Throw in car insurance (because I'm American) and it was unsustainable. If there's one thing the ACA is - it's not affordable. A complete garbage program that has enabled health insurance companies to take our money by force.
I've realized there's no way I can do this. I missed my window when I was in college (because I was working - for healthcare). Now I'm condemned to suffer until I retire or die. A consummate worker drone shackled by literal bureaucratic bullshit.
No, it doesn't mean you can still go out to eat and have a club membership. If you save nothing after you use up your entire paycheck going out to eat and paying for a gym membership , that means you aren't handling money well.
Sorry folks, but many of us here sound entitled. Having been poor and scrambled my way up, it was depressing reading.
2 years time for what? To build something with other people? A partner, family, children?
Nope, just doing what brings him fun or fulfillment or whatnot...
I'm not saying it's bad to take care of yourself from time to time. But as a father of 5, I can definitely say that the best and most instructive moments in my life were definitely the ones where it wasn't about me but about people who were important to me.
And the money issue that most people seem to be talking about here: Go to work and earn money. That's life. It always has been. If people would only do what fulfills them, there would be no sewer workers or garbage collectors. Whenever you take advantage of a developed society, you always have a duty to give something back to it.
If there is not Time enough after a 8 hour shift to to what you want, you have a serious Problem.
People are different. Some are just not “as resilient” as others. Some have mental issues. Some have other priorities in life. Some people are just overwhelmed when they have to focus on more than one thing (their own wellbeing) - which should and cannot be confused with selflessness.
Not everyone wants to accept the common conceptions of life. And that’s ok.
I couldn't imagine anyone wanting a job not finding one. At least in the US, there's industries hurting for skills shortages. We're also on the edge of a cliff of baby boomers retiring.
Getting a low-salary one, unrelated to your skills, is fairly easy (e.g: waiter).
The nordics arent really as inviting, socialist and helpful as many US interweebs might think.
Sweden and Denmark will only pay unemployment if you have unemployment insurance. Called A-kassa. It is very expensive and you have to have paid it for a year to be able to claim benefits. If you don´t pay A-kassa you will have the pleasure of having them spam you to reel you on 3-4 times a week.
The Swedes and Danes have the highest taxes in the world but are using the US medical insurace as a model for unemployment.
Really not the welfare system these two countries claim they have.
The benefits you get from the A-kassa are extremly low. Less than average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment. You can buy another really expensive insurance to get a little higher amount.
And even if it's an insurance you have paid for you will get hounded to get any job, the Danish authorities may send you to do pretty much menial job they demand to get you off the benefits. The Swedish are not as bad as the Danish in that regard.
The way to live unemployed in Denmark and Sweden is to get into the medical system. Get a doctor to sign you have some illness. Stress is probably 90% of the cases in Denmark.
Then you get a small amount montly, it has been pre covered by your tax money so you dont need to pay the extortionate A-kassa (unemployment insurance) and no one will hound you to take some excruciating job no one wants to do.
This setup btw benefits the ruling parties in Sweden and Denmark as they can claim unenployment is at an historic low. No one counts the people on, I suppose it could be called, disability.
Iceland is a little different. Unemployment is covered in your tax payments, it's not a private (it's not supposed to be profitable, but trust me, for the A-kassa it truly is ) insurance like Denmark and Sweden.
In Iceland you have to show proof that you are actively looking for work and you will be cut off from benefits for an x number of months after an x amount of time. Do not remember the exact setup.
Bizarrely the Icelandic system is a lot more fair and less cruel than the Swedish and Danish. All three pay out a very very very low amount of money though.
Now, coming from a point of bitterness. This medical loop is exploited as you wouldnt beleive in Sweden and Denmark. I have people in my vicinty proudly admitting they are on "stress" leave because some employer said something mean to them they didnt want to hear.
So the working dane and swede has to pay minimum 44% taxes of their salary to keep this sham going.
I pay an exruciating amount of taxes in the Nordic countries. Sweden and Denmark are the highest. Iceland a little less.
It pisses me off royally to see the tax money gamed in this way and this has turned me to voting for parties I never thought I would.
Social democrats are a poision, maybe they were useful 50 years ago but today they do enourmous damage to countries that offer tax payed welfare.
tldr;
You need savings in the Nordics too if you are going to quit your job. If you can get a doctor to sign a medical paper that claims you had to leave work because of stress, you can game the system and let the taxpayers pay for your hobbies for a few years.
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