Obviously complaining about the company or my personal situation at that time to a new prospective employer is an absolute no go. With how long I stayed it's virtually impossible to talk about older roles or just blitz my way through listing out the technologies I used; I have to talk about this one role, in detail, multiple times with every company.
Has anyone else had to deal with a similar issue? What kind of solutions did you come up with for it and have you done anything since to ensure you don't wind up in similar situations again.
ANY negativity during a job interview is going to work against you. It is expected that you find a way to spin every situation and every project in some kind of positive light. Even when interviewers ask for weaknesses or about conflict, the “right” answer is to be able to talk about that negative thing in a way that lets your true brilliance shine through. Skilled candidates know how to inject just the right amount of humanity and relatability in an otherwise perfect employee.
If you are having trouble separating your feelings from your ability to keep to your talking points, then a good therapist may be able to help you learn better emotional regulation skills.
In the future, keep working to proactively manage your career. Keep yourself in roles where you are learning and thriving. When you feel burnout creeping in, deploy strategies to counter it or at least get yourself into a new situation.
I compare it to driving in traffic. A lot of times I'm not in a hurry and can just stay in one lane and crawl along. Other times, I am in a hurry and I can weave in and out, getting flustered and angry and nearly crashing and still end up 4 cars ahead of where I'd have been without all that.
Rarely, you can do all that extra work and get meaningful improvement that justified all the effort. It does happen. Sometimes it presents itself in the form of a severance package.
While I see your point, I as a candidate am absolutely transparent and honest about anything work-related, be it in the present or past.
To me the relationship employer-employee is very important, I spend more time working for a client/company during the week than I do with family and friends. Thus this time has to be spent in a mutually satisfying and healthy way.
Pitching and selling myself as anything different than I am does nothing but put me in uncomfortable positions.
I don't know anyone that shows their whole self in every situation, so some reservation/ choice is made implicitly. The discussion here is about an explicit choice, which must be maintained, at least for the most part.
For example, I’m not embarrassed about the fact that my mom died when I was young. But it would be deeply weird to open a job interview by saying, “Hi, I’m [name] and my mom died when I was young.”
I’m not hiding that information from employers. But maybe we should know one another a little better before I bring it up.
lying on the job too like this is an important political skill too. referencing past projects rhetorically and abusing the fact that your "professional opinion" is fluid is a powerful way to motivate people. You are allowed to over- or under-sell how good or bad an engineering decision/project/tool/process worked.
Don't ever approach it this way. You never need to lie, and preparing for an interview with "lies" in your mind is going to backfire on you.
You can use the technique of "mental reservation". There is always something positive or complimentary that can be said about every bad situation, every horrible supervisor. It is simply a matter for you to examine it dispassionately, extract the good, and frame that nicely without introducing insults or the real negativity and pain that you felt in the moment.
If your supervisor overworked you and you were induced to come in for 70-hour weeks and you ultimately burned out with no vacation or weekends, you could say that the management "was quite dedicated to the company's goals and productivity". If you considered your coworkers to be slackers and they never seemed to work, "the company accommodated a wide range of talents, skills and abilities." If you never saw your supervisor and had nearly no guidance on projects or tasks, "the management believed in me and trusted me to do the right thing in nearly every respect."
These are not lies and you should not lie, because if you go counterfactual, that will be found out. If, on the other hand, they know you had a difficult time and you still found ways to compliment those bastards, then perhaps you will do the same favor for them one day.
You can go counterfactual with your "professional opinion," which is useful in debates with no clear answer when your opinion has sway. It's a great way to put your thumb on the scale, and unless you say wildly inconsistent things very visibly, you will not be found out.
> the management "was quite dedicated to the company's goals and productivity".
I see no difference between these things. One is what you say instead of what you think, the other is what you say to mask what you think. shrug
Invariably, at any company, even if they are a fantastic workplace, you are going to disagree with your lead or coworkers at some point. You will be asked to do work you aren't excited about or don't see value in, and you will be asked to work with people you don't particularly like.
If you aren't able to maintain a fairly positive attitude for a one hour interview, it makes sense that a hiring manager might worry about how well you'll be able to be a team player when things get rough. I used to think it was bullshit, and I learned the hard way. I hired someone who was fairly unpleasant during his interview, because he was the most competent applicant, and it seemed wrong to me to look at anything other than job skills. He was an excellent programmer, but he sucked so much time and energy out from the rest of the team with complaints and arguments. Of course I don't think that's always going to be the case, sometimes people have gone through genuinely negative past work experiences or just have brusque personalities, but I was certainly wary after that of people who couldn't put on a positive attitude for an interview.
Ignoring this key aspect of humanity isn't virtuous
Like?
If you marketed a system or strategy to get people moving into that train of thought, create self-motivation, and actionable advice, you'd be a millionaire.
When you're in the what's what of the stress-detach-burnout cycle, sometimes it's hard to think creatively, which I think is the injection sometimes needed in this situation.
1. It’s probably best not to mention negative experiences unless it’s prompted by the interviewer. In some cases it may be super relevant and unavoidable, but aside from that, best to leave it alone.
2. Be clear and unambiguous about what was negative. Don’t be vague. I once had a candidate say something like “yeah and that job didn’t end very nicely…I’ll just leave it at that.” This is not a good thing to say in a job interview.
3. Always tie it to something positive. The story should end with a note about how you grew from the experience.
Unfortunately, most people you’re going to encounter don’t have the depth or maturity to be good interviewers.
Some do though, and they know the truth. There is rarely a job in the world where everything is positive. If you can communicate the negatives in a way that I can understand, empathize with, and that demonstrates your ability to handle it with grace, maturity, and humility, I would probably value that more. At the same time, if you’re someone that harbours a grudge over it, like if someone decided against your advice and you’re bitter over it, I’ll take notice too.
Basically, you need to be a team player, but not an automaton. If we wanted that, we have AI now.
My approach would be along the lines of "if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything" which would probably lead to some vague statement like "it wasn't a good fit"
Software jobs are generally pretty nice jobs. If your leaving one it's not for some positive reason. I feel like people know that.
The most useful answers I've heard in the wild were dispassionate, one sentence expressions of why <objective fact> made the existing job irreconcilable with your <valid need>. Done well, that shows the hiring manager you're able to approach conflict constructively, and gives reason to believe the bad fit is unlikely to recur in this role.
AskAManager[0] also suggests "I’m not actively looking, but I saw this job and was really interested because of X," as a reasonably broad spectrum solution to this problem. (Though after just a year, I as a hiring manager might still worry you are flighty).
[0] https://www.askamanager.org/2023/02/how-do-i-tell-interviewe...
Some basic examples of describing negative situations:
I ended up learning a lot there and I'm a better engineer now because of it.
We had a lot of challenges to overcome and you can never nail all of them but we really managed to produce a lot of great work there within some pretty serious constraints.
I accomplished a major thing and was learning X on the side so it was a perfect time and opportunity to find an opportunity to learn that more in a real world setting and/with experts.
I joined that team with the intent to learn X first hand and, while there is always more to learn, I got enough hands-on, production experience with it that I feel like it's firmly in my toolbox.
We had some unexpected changes/setbacks early on that changed our goals but it ended up being kind of a blessing in disguise since it pushed me out of my comfort zone and gave me an unexpected opportunity to level up my leadership/management/architecture/in-the-weeds skills.
If you join a team as an IC and it’s a dumpster fire and clearly never going to ship, then “I joined expecting the project to be in a different stage of development. I gave it a shot but I’m looking for something <more mature/earlier in development>”. If your director is a raging ass, then “leadership want to take the product one way and Id rather go another “
Secondly, there’s three sides to every story. Yours, theirs and the truth. If I say “my manager is an asshole so I’m leaving his team”, it’s probable that my manager has a different take on it, maybe “maccard said they wanted to be kept in the loop so I am telling them what happening but they accuse me of changing my mind”.
Maybe the boss being a raging ass is the root cause of the team moving in the wrong direction. But that may be debatable, and knowing that doesn't answer the interviewer's question. The more relevant piece is that you and the director disagree and that you don't want to waste your time working on something you aren't inspired by.
Eh? It might be nice, but there might be nicer (or at least better paid) opportunities out there.
If you’re going somewhere that isn’t NDA heavy, you can speak in general terms without violating the letter of your NDA and it’ll be fine.
If you’re going somewhere that is NDA heavy and has a culture of corporate secrecy, demonstrating that you will not pierce the veil of your NDA of your previous employer at all, neither in letter nor in spirit, will actually help your prospects.
For example, if the company was doing something you felt was evil That you can't specifically mention, then just say That you disagreed with an important strategic decision. Explain what you did to handle it in generic terms, such as talking with your manager, writing up a memo, quitting the company, etc
Do you think this is helping you select better people?
I think this is selecting for fakers and cheaters.
My background in academia colors me but the level of office politics some describe in the private sector genuinely sounds like a middle school drama club at times. I've personally witnessed incredibly talented individuals at FAANG companies get the boot for reasons that had absolutely nothing to do with their competence. Think messy personal dynamics, bosses having affairs with coworkers aiming for a position.
It makes me wonder about this ingrained necessity for pretense and obfuscation in private sector communication. Why the need to constantly play these games as if acknowledging reality is somehow detrimental? In academia, while not devoid of its own issues, the selection process for students at least attempts to prioritize merit and potential. The idea that some of the most brilliant minds I've encountered might be filtered out by arbitrary corporate "standards," while incapable but politically savvy individuals thrive, seems counterproductive.
Let’s take your example - boss has an affair with a coworker, you speak up about it, then you get the boot and sign an NDA. In that scenario, I’d probably say something like the following:
“There was an interpersonal incident that was out of my control, and unfortunately I’m not legally allowed to speak about it in detail. What I can say is that I learned how important it is to stand up for what’s right even if it comes at a personal cost.”
This isn’t playing a game, it’s having empathy for the person sitting across the table from you. They have to make a decision on very limited information, and you’re trying to help them make that decision. If I were to just say “hehe let’s just say that something crazy went down, and I’m out of a job.” Well technically I told the truth, but I certainly didn’t help the interviewer make their assessment.
I've never made a decision on few points of information, often I know researchers or their output for years before we interact, so it makes sense I don't have to care what language they use as this is a low correlation signal on their output.
You talk about bad situations, not bad people. “Shifting financial realities meant we had to pivot our product deep into the deployment process.” That’s not anyone’s fault. It just happens sometimes. Talk about how your team struggled to deliver success despite a challenging external speed bump.
Two:
Talk kindly about people you can't stand. Your coworker wasn't an asshole. He was an assertive person with a different perspective than yours, and you worked to find common ground so that you could succeed despite your competing visions. Bonus points if you can internalize this mindset and start seeing said assholes as people you merely impersonally disagree with. This makes life much happier.
Don’t lean into the negative. Lean into the positive results you managed to scavenge even with those obstacles. That's what a new boss wants to hear that you're capable of.
Fwiw, I hate working with people who talk like this, and would much prefer:
"We ended up changing the product at the last minute because we needed the money".
One isn't better than the other. They're just used by different groups.
Not trying to be a jerk, just curious.
The GP is suggesting to talk about the problem, rather than “the owner blew all the cash on blackjack and hookers, screwing the rest of us in the process.”
The recommendation isn’t corporate speak, the recommendation is to focus on talking about the problem, not the people responsible for the problem.
They very much might want to hear the unedited version afterward once you're their coworker.
As an interviewer, I love open smart people with balanced perspectives. I start half-listening when it sounds like pseudo-positive sales speak. Then again I'm not in California, which may impact the attitude here.
Moving forward from a bad experience can be difficult, but feeling the need to badmouth means something is holding you back from being great right now, and you’re the one paying the price.
2) Think about the opportunities that your previous job gave you. Specifically opportunities. Every time a negative thought comes up, ask "What was my opportunity at that moment?" and write down your answer. Opportunity to disagree and commit? Great. Opportunity to solidify your understanding of your own values? Great! Opportunity to challenge yourself and work on something outside of your comfort zone? etc. Write those down and brag about them to your next amazing job!
Or a therapist because the experience has a negative impact on the ability "to function" to the degree that finding a job is "functioning."
["Scare quotes" to clarify I am not making value assumptions about the OP]
It’s pretty simple. Just put a positive lens on everything. Yes, you’ll need to paint a new (positive) story in your mind that might be different from what you’ve told yourself after leaving the job.
The main thing you’re trying to avoid is making the interviewer wonder if you were actually the problem all along. (When you’re interviewing a candidate it’s impossible to know “who was in the right” - so, avoid putting interviewers in a spot where they have to judge whether your complaints are valid)
IMHO, if you do have negativity in you it will leak out later and make your situation worse. Better treat the core problem- which is you not being able to leave past where it belongs- in the past.
From experience, people who can't hold their tongue and tell bad things about their past bosses or coworkers, will also tell bad things about you behind your back.
If they were bad, I would say that they were not (whatever you seek - technical or challenging or whatever) and move on. I will mention that I did them right and I am looking for a more (take your pick from above) position.
Really, this is not a psychologist cabinet.
FWIIW, I hire technical or semi-technical people for my teams, from besides basic to get senior. Not a lot because people tend to stay a long time - one of the things I am truly proud of (just after having a fantastic team)
Focus on the accomplishments, how you navigated tough situations, how you helped make things better.
Cut all the 'extreme' truth about the reality of the situation out. There is no benefit in over sharing how you felt about this, that or the other thing while working there.
but, we also asked some behavioural questions about past experiences. we don't say it explicitly, but we're looking for responses like --- can you say some words that suggest you have demonstrated initiative at work, or you can sometimes influence others and build support for a decision rather than unilaterally doing stuff without consultation (we're $megacorp, not $startup...) . you don't need to be able to talk at length about all aspects of your past job, but you do need to be able to offer a few examples of That Time When I Demonstrated Initiative, or That Time When I Influenced The Stakeholders that can be mashed into a digestible Situation / Task / (your) Action / Result format & where you can give a few reasonable answers to follow up questions from interviewers who probe and ask annoying questions like "so, what exactly were your responsibilities?"
another thing we'd be probing for is "growth mindset" type stuff. a bad response to "if you were in a similar situation in future, what would you do differently?" is "nothing, everything i did at $oldjob was optimal". a response that shows some reflection, a willingness to admit not everything you do is perfect, and concrete ideas for improvements to behaviour or process comes across much better. no need to enumerate all your worst failings, cherry-pick and offer one or two lesser ones.
for these kinds of behavioural questions based on past experience, we didn't really care if junior / intermediate hires struggled to give strong responses. We would be a lot more concerned about poor responses to these questions for engineering managers or other positions with a leadership component.
having a prepared short form answer to "why are you applying for a job here" is also a good idea.
if you have friends or acquaintances who regularly interview folks who you can hit up for a favour, you could see if they'd be willing to conduct a mock interview and then give you feedback about things you could improve on.
I have asked a question both in interviews and one on ones with current employees, “If you had a magic wand, what are the three things you could change about the company?”.
That’s the time to be more honest about unrealistic deadlines.
But even then I’m going to ask a follow up question about what did you do to try to influence change. I don’t think there has ever been a time in my career (29 years, 10 jobs) that I couldn’t have talked to higher ups and negotiate between time, cost and requirements. I didn’t always do a good job at it early career.
There are two strategies, first ask the same “magic wand” questions. The second is to have an emergency fund large enough to confidently say “no” and knowing that your bills will be paid while you look for another job.
Oh and the third - keep an up to date resume, a constantly updated longer form career document that lists out your major accomplishments in STAR format, an up to date skillset, and a solid network.
In conclusion, I think it's important to be specific about the key negative factor (if asked about) and to frame negative things in a generally positive light, while remaining honest. After all, it's our perceptions and our attitudes that we can change. An interview is not the place to unload your negative feelings. It also helps to remain objective when things get uncomfortable.
My advice:
- write down the stories (use cases) before the actual IV
- for each story, focus on what you learnt / succeeded
- for the really negative ones, focus on the learning
- for the other ones, focus on the outcomes, mentioning things that worked and maybe some things that did not work and how you did it
This is the part where you have to act the game and avoid being too transparent. Mentioning too much the negative will be seen as a red flag by most hiring managers or recruiters.Having been in this situation, the way I handled it was treating it as a business problem. My story was that I loved the work and feel a great reward from delivering great products/outcomes, but we got pulled into a bad cycle of poor time management that compromised the work. You’re here to deliver excellence. It’s not about blame, it about finding a place to win.
If you can deliver a narrative like that which doesn’t sound bitchy, it’s really powerful.
GAF stands for “give a f***”(censored for clarity).
Is this a Good Will Hunting reference?
This is a different kind of example than you have kind of mentioned but here you go - try telling someone that a manager just earmarked you and bullied you into depression or ran you out of the team or company and your regret being complacent[1]. You saw it coming, a poster on the wall but you didn't act in time and you let it fester and that it was a huge learning. That's exactly what had happened and see the result - you will instantly be assumed to be the problem employee; not even for a moment the hiring manager would think, or take into account, that the manager was the problem.
At best you can show them as "challenges" and how those "opened doors" for you in various new "dimensions" of "learning" and "growth" and enabled you to "mature" further and helped you start your journey on the "path" to "leadership" roles. I don't know about you but it disgusts me just typing here. But that is what I have done and that is what I will do.
But the best way to handle it is - not to talk about it if you can help it and fill your CV or the "tell me about challenges in your last roles" section of the interview preparation with completely made up instances, if you can handle the yarn; I can't and I go bonkers spinning them, so I try to stick to what really happened with little or a lot of "colour".
[1] Heaven forbid, if you tell them "you regret not standing up to that manager and not fighting and making a stink" :)
Practice it. Write the answer. Go over it for 20 hours. Treat it like a presentation because it is. I go so far as to make an AI "interviewer" in Vapi so I can voice it out, and you can mod the tone to be supportive, indifferent, sarcastic, etc.
If you're disappointed with yourself, say that. Humans make mistakes. Someone out there started smoking or drinking once. Someone had an affair. You don't know which of your interviewers did which, but you can assume that everyone has done something they knew was a bad idea.
It's also reasonable to assume that an applicant is leaving for reasons. Bored? Wants more money? That's a pretty bad reason. Unhappy? That's a much better reason. What's the catch? Why is this property on the market for cheap? A trick is to imply what people want to hear - you're looking to work with smarter people, better processes, get your shit together, etc.
There's no secret, actually. Be kind and be honest.
Omit employers with bad breakups.
What you want to do is publicly shit on your previous employer and still get another job. That's not too smart, now is it?
Every company that's looking for people to hire can see exactly how you're going to treat that company once you've moved on and no longer work there.
Everybody has issues with their previous job. The way you deal with it is you discuss those issues with your self-help group at the local bar. When you're in an interview, every single thing in your work history was great. The people that you worked with were great. The companies that you worked with were great. Everything was fucking excellent. Just totally fucking excellent. Brilliant.
When people hear, "It's a period of my life where I was mostly unhappy", that's a guy they don't want to go to work every day and work with. At least I don't. I got my own problems.
I fucking want to retire tomorrow at the latest. I don't fucking want to go in to work tomorrow. I really don't. I might call in sick. Easter Bird Flu or some completely made up shit. You think that's what I tell them? I tell them everything is going great. Everything is fucking excellent. I'm probably going to work tomorrow.
Bat shit crazy management = top management's strategic goals were frequently updated
We did everything in Excel = tooling was not optimal, budget restrictions limited out tech
My manager was a fucking moron = although we had different approaches on topics, we worked to complement one-another, for much better outcomes
But basically as other(s) said, don't focus on "they were assholes" but (whatever YOU did in some nice detail) "I updated the SOP to deliver X, Y, _and_ Z using so-and-so, and at half the time, freeing up 0.25 FTE that we collaborated to enhancing A, B, _and_ C operations.My current style of communication has failed to gain much traction when managers have run it up the flag pole. That’s always assuming that people had any interest in other viewpoints, rather than their own sacred long standing beliefs.
While you don't want to lie about your qualifications, achievements, titles, responsibilities, I don't see an issue with inventing a story to get these points across. It doesn't matter.
When I moved to a big corp to a small org, I said politics were bad and middle management was horrible and I got screwed over and I hated it. And pretty much everybody I talked to responded something like “yeah I am with you, we’ve all been through this shit”.
They interview you as much as you interview them. If they don’t get why you were miserable in your former job, you probably don’t want to work for them. Unless there is considerable money on the table and you’re happy to do the grind.
It’s also easier to come across as a team player when you express yourself freely rather than if you fake positivity all around.
What you have to do though, is to show a positive attitude about what you want next. “I am so excited about this because in my previous job I didn’t have that”
You do have to talk about the bad things in a distanced joyful manner. Like “my former boss really made me think of Steve Carrel in The Office”. Things like that.
Godspeed.
I'm not saying that this is bad advice, in the sense that doing so probably decreases your chances of getting an offer.
However, this reminds me employers who demand that all applicants can do multiple leetcode hards. Much like demanding that all applicants can do leetcode hards skews for people who cheat, dropping applicants because they say something negative skews for people who lie/spin/bullshit.
> I have to talk about this one role, in detail, multiple times with every company.
Ok; so how do _you_ talk in interviews about this past job that you regret? If you've had to talk in detail about that one role multiple times, haven't you yet come up with a way to talk through it? Haven't you yet developed, either deliberately, or spontaneously, just through the sheer fact of repetition, some kind of a story around it?