Sounds like, at least in some limited circumstances (using the provided WiFi AP, having this feature turned on, etc), ISPs are going to be able to tell law enforcement/courts whether anyone was home at a certain time or not.
If we rely on the technical path, Comcast can achieve the same by how many active IPv6 addresses are in use. Even if you aren't using your phone, the device is going to be constantly pinging services like email, and your ISP can use that to piece together how many people are at home.
If we rely on legal protection, then not only Comcast, but all ISPs will be prohibited from spying on their customers. Ideally the legislation would be more broad and stop other forms of commercial/government surveillance, but I can't imagine a world where Congress could actually achieve something that widely helpful for regular citizens.
I want privacy codified in human law. I didn't vote for standards bodies to pave the road to hell by removing every goddamned persistent handle we can find from existence. I didn't vote for the EU to reinvent an internet worse than popup ads by attacking the symptoms not the cause. I would rather have the internet of the 2000s back in a heartbeat than keep putting up with shitty “technical solutions” to corporations having too much power at scale. I don’t care if people break the law: prosecute them when they do and make the punishments enough to deter future law breakers.
There is absolutely something civilized beyond a lawless advertising wild west where the technical solution is to all be masked Zorros.
Why is it that if someone said “we need a legal solution to gun violence” the people that say “no we need a technical solution all people should wear kevlar and carry 9mm pistols” are considered the lunatics but when we ask for a legal solution to rampant non-consensual tracking for the purpose of indoctrinating the consumer class with propaganda we all laugh and say bah the solution must be technical? I don’t get it.
Article 12
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks
- Paris, 1948, Universal Declaration of Human Rights
My gut feeling as that no matter how much additional and specific language we add to any bill of privacy rights, there will always be holes or work-arounds due to interpretation and semantics. This is how lawyers in most robust legal systems make their living, after all. The data that results from robbing us of consent, privacy and agency when engaged with websites, web/mobile apps and software is so insanely valuable that the people interested in collecting and selling it will be happy to keep one step ahead of whatever language we come up with that attempts to mitigate their actions.
We need a different solution, one that returns us to the levels of implied trust I remember from the late 1990's/early 2000's Internet, one that prevents corporate entities from being the dominant drivers behind its growth and development. However, I am not technical enough or imaginative enough to even guess at what that solution might be, so from my perspective, the battle is already lost and we are at their mercy unless we avoid having an online presence as much as possible...a bit like that old classic movie War Games, the only way to win is not to play.
Nobody will ever write a perfect law and you’ll always see cases like dark patterns when people try to unsubscribe from things or try to maintain their privacy, until there is proper enforcement and businesses start getting punished for violating the intent of the law. That is also unlikely.
"except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others."
Currently 'the West' happens to be doing its best to quash international law, so I'd expect even that thin veneer to crumble rather soon.
Do yourself a favor and enable the Cookie lists in uBlock Origin.
I'm personally grateful that a law requires my consent before tracking me. That means I should not be tracked without me saying OK without monetary risks.
Could you elaborate on this please? I'm sifting through the options and not sure what I'm looking for (disclaimer: I have never once opened the uBlock Origin settings menu in all the years I've used it).
Tracking a user across domains using a 3rd party aggregator to serve add and do attribution is the evil. And the EPD far overshoots the mark of specifically addressing that evil.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPrivacy_Directive says
> The Directive provision applicable to cookies is Article 5(3). Recital 25 of the Preamble recognises the importance and usefulness of cookies for the functioning of modern Internet and directly relates Article 5(3) to them but Recital 24 also warns of the danger that such instruments may present to privacy. The change in the law does not affect all types of cookies; those that are deemed to be "strictly necessary for the delivery of a service requested by the user", such as for example, cookies that track the contents of a user's shopping cart on an online shopping service, are exempted.
> Cookie compliance [heading]
> To comply with the regulations governing cookies under the GDPR and the ePrivacy Directive you must:
> Receive users’ consent before you use any cookies except strictly necessary cookies.
(emphasis not mine, but would have added it)
If your are referring to GDPR this is wrong. GDPR does not require consent for strictly necessary cookies.
>Strictly necessary cookies — These cookies are essential for you to browse the website and use its features, such as accessing secure areas of the site. Cookies that allow web shops to hold your items in your cart while you are shopping online are an example of strictly necessary cookies. These cookies will generally be first-party session cookies. While it is not required to obtain consent for these cookies, what they do and why they are necessary should be explained to the user.
Though language preference does not seem like something that requires a cookie. Just respect the Accept-Language header. There is no need to reinvent the wheel here.
In any event, that’s besides then point. There are non-tracking cookies that get swept up in the EPD’s consent requirements. This causes way more popups than needed to address the real problem of users being tracked and profiled across domains. The result is users being inundated with consent banners on freaking homepages.
If you changed the requirements to “consent is required for marketing cookies” then I’d wager it would vastly reduce the need for these banners. You could show the banner interstitially as soon as a customer entered your funnel and wanted to try to perform spooky attribution.
In my experience the banners are useless because they don’t actually tell me whether the site is tracking me or not (the behavior I presumably want to prevent). They just tell me whether the site uses cookies, which I’m okay with 99% of the time, so I just click yes.
Nope.
That's exactly why the evil cookie modals are not on the GDPR but only on the sites that want to track you and now need to ask you for your consent before doing so. That's usually exactly where good faith GDPR detractors are wrong, and that's what needs to be repeated again and again in those discussions.
They show up. I've worked on privacy legislation at the state and local level. Barely anybody calls or writes in support. That means barely anybody would turn up to a contested primary election over it, or donate to a challenger, or organise the foregoing en masse. Contrast that with bread-and-butter or activist issues, where it's immediately clear there is political capital at the very least on the board.
The problem is what I said in other comnents here. This is the fabel of sodom and gomorrah in action. We have no people with any moral compass in charge.
There is no incentive to represent the civically disengaged. Particularly on niche issues like privacy.
> We have no people with any moral compass in charge
No system works if reliant on wishing up on a star that people were better. We have a lot of problems with our republic's design. None of them can address problems people don't care to involve themselves in respect of.
THATS LITERALLY THE JOB.
You are literally arguing that if I got a job at a bank and started stealing the deposits it would be ok because I had no incentive not to.
Actually now that I think about it you are also reinforcing my point. Sodom and Gomorrah. You yourself have such poor moral compass that when another person acts maliciously you give them a pass because of course that's what they would do. Because its also what you would do because you also have no moral compass.
The city could not be saved. Not because "god" destroyed it but because the people themselves destroyed it. No good people existed there.
No, it’s not and it never has been. (Civic engagement and persistent watchfulness on liberties is a universal drumbeat across democracies.)
The courts et al are tasked with protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority, or in this case, the engaged. Making the judiciary coëqual was our founders’ attempt at taming this tendency. But nothing knowledgeable ever written has suggested our republic should run on autopilot.
> when another person acts maliciously you give them a pass
I’m not giving them a pass, I’m saying the system is acting as designed. If people don’t give a shit about privacy but give a LOT of shits about abortion and cost of living, the elected should focus on the latter. This isn’t moral corruption, it’s responding to expressed preference. (Also, Comcast using Wi-fi to aid law enforcement is far from a black-and-white moral issue. It’s a political and legal question with multiple equilibria when it comes to right answers.)
There is being righteous and there is being right. The bulk of advocates for digital privacy enjoy the former and almost take their failure at the latter as further evidence of their righteousness. (It’s a lot easier to wax lyrical about Sodom and Gomorrah than pick up the phone once a month and attend meetings.)
You really are proving my original point though.
>(It’s a lot easier to wax lyrical about Sodom and Gomorrah than pick up the phone once a month and attend meetings.)
Blame that victim!
Non sequitur.
An elected prioritising a hot-button issue bill over one they like but which has no support is listening to their population.
> Blame that victim!
If an accurate description of choices actively made is blame, sure.
The bar rises. The vote was supposed to be enough. If people call in, well, that's not enough, after all, if you really cared, you'd have written an email, or filled out the correct form in the FTC call for feedback thing, which you knew was happening because you monitor the day to day activities of the FTC, the FDA, and the sixty other agencies that might ask for your opinion on something, without which oh well they'll just do what the lobbyists tell them. Oh, you did fill the form? Well, too bad, our lobbyists tell us that you're a bot. Oh, you're not a bot? Well, if you truly cared, you'd have come to the office of such and such at so and so time. You did? Well, if you truly cared, you'd attend more city council meetings, board of education meetings, representative town halls, senate town halls. You'd have written the senator, the congressperson, the state senator, the state congressperson, the mayor, the governor, the president, the president's dog.
What's becoming clear is that the idea of representative democracy is a good one, but the various implementations throughout history have missed the mark - weirdly, inevitably, all giving way with barely a whimper to highly concentrated forms of power, since the Romans.
We should seek to develop, and teach, solutions that empower each individual to take action. This liberal (as in, liberal democracy) idea that things can only get done if you convince 1000, 10,000, 1,000,000 people to do the exact same specific action, is disempowering, disenfranchising, and leads to concentration of power in the hands of the few who can wield the capital equivalent of 1,000,000 people in the form of lobbying, disinformation campaigns, or whatever other wack shit billionaires and corporations get up to.
Direct action seems to be the way to empower people to actually get things done, and syndicalist trade unionism seems to be a good way to balance between individual engagement in the serious work of organizing society, while leveraging the good ideas of representative democracy to allow representatives to manage some of the more tedious aspects of day to day communication and organization between various groups.
I freely admit this is utopian thinking, but I sure wish our world would try more experimentation in governance and organization rather than all of us just repeatedly smacking ourselves in the faces with the baseball bat of capitalist liberal democracy and hoping maybe one time we'll come away without a bloody nose or worse.
According to whom? Nothing in the Federalist Papers or our country’s founding envisions fire-and-forget politics.
> sure wish our world would try more experimentation in governance
The correct place for this experimentation is small governments. And to my knowledge, this experimentation does happen. It just doesn’t necessarily have the effects its framers imagined. RCV didn’t break the two-party system, for example. And public-sector unions have turned into pests.
You're repeatedly misrepresenting or misunderstanding the issue. The tl'dr is that Bezos' civic engagement weighs more than my civic engagement, more than a million of me even. This is one easy way to take the casual and overly general "you're civically disengaged" victim blaming off the table.
Your elected representatives already know your interests, they were a precondition of winning the election. They don't need tens/hundreds of thousands of citizens writing them a letter every time so they are reminded of those interests. This shouldn't turn into a part time job for all citizens.
You casually handwave away the abusers' role with a simple "ah people aren't better" while in the same sentence blaming the abused for not doing enough?
Large corporations have full time lobbyists. They only have to send one "letter". You don't expect every shareholder and employee to be "engaged" just because a company's interest is in fact their interest. Your opinions will be shaped by whether you're more a shareholder or employee, or a "civically disengaged" single parent with 3 jobs.
> We have a lot of problems with our republic's design
The big one being that money is a superpower so the more one has, the more one can take. Or hang behind the predator pack and feed on the leftovers. After all a billionaire's rising tide will lift a millionaire's boat too. Jumping through mental hoops to justify the current situation by victim blaming isn't a prerequisite of this, it's a choice.
https://theonion.com/american-people-hire-high-powered-lobby...
Again, I worked on these issues. Bezos and friends never showed up. Nobody showed up. This wasn’t a battle between David and Goliath, it was an empty field to which some generals showed up, looked around and then left.
> money is a superpower so the more one has, the more one can take
To a limit. The last few years have been a barn full of monied candidates being trounced by insurgents.
And again, in any case, not germane to this issue. Most people who would call in on digital privacy don’t bother because they’re lazy or think it’s useless. When they do, e.g. when the EFF mobilises, it’s a quick battle. (The problem being such mobilisation has tended to be reactionary. In part due to the other overlap between digital privacy advocates who will civically engage and libertarians. So we don’t get positive pressure to pass protections, just occasional negative pressure against legal encroachment.)
Research your state's privacy laws and submit a cool and concise complaint to your regulators, e.g. attorney general, consumer protection bureaus, public utility commissions, et cetera. These offices are understaffed and overworked--there is a good chance they haven't noticed this.
If you want to throw cash at the problem, check if Xfinity is pulling this crap in Illinois. (Or another state with a a BIPA [1].) One could argue that one's radar cross section is biometric [1]. That opens up avenues for financing litigation.
Finally, always, call your electeds. U.S. Congressmen and Senators, yes, but also your state legislators. Put it on their radars. (Most offices will put a staffer on a novel issue if more than a couple people call in about it.) If you want to supercharge this effect, find a local party organisation (e.g. such and such town or county D/R committee or club), go to their meeting and try to get it on the agenda.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_Information_Privacy_...
This is by design. A lot of people talk about RTO in regards to business real estate but there's also the aspect of keeping people so busy and exhausted that they don't show up when it matters.
This would make sense if people didn’t show up for anything. They do. Including very overworked folks.
The unfortunate truth is the people most interested in privacy overlap significantly with the politically nihilistic and lazy. They’ve never called their elected or shown up to a town hall and, moreover, never will, because of course it’s useless.
It's not even politics, it's simple ethics.
I genuinely wonder if people would wind up spending less money if they had to pay for services than if they get exposed to ads that lead them to buy more things. But either way, once ads and "free with ads" are gone, there's much more room for other competitors.
Ads don't require pervasive and invasive tracking for every breath you take
Or can instagram only be free if ads are targeted to detailed profiles of individuals built over decades as they are tracked across the whole internet?
So it's not about the perceived effectiveness of advertisements that you feel as a user, it's about the rather more unique product that they sell to advertisers that really raises their revenue.
Yes. Targeted ads need to be 100% to 700% more efficient than regular ads to be as profitable: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43996623
More on point, we suffer from a problem that far too many people of all walks of life want nothing to do with politics.
Plato made the most accurate point 2300 years ago: "The penalty for not being involved in politics is you will be ruled by your inferiors."
And, even though you may not be interested in politics, politics is ALWAYS interested in you.
It would be enough to have your browser store a cookie without personal information with { cookieconsent: "STFU" } or some variable in local storage. If the website respected that, we would be fine.
Personal identifiers are not needed and foul compromises aren't acceptable.
But the attempted legal solutions suffer from being inside the sandbox, meaning all the “cookie management” software is a pile of hacks that barely work, and rely on browsers, as you’ve noticed, to allow their cookies in the service of…limiting cookies. And of course they also suffer from the politicians who wrote them having no clue how any of this works. I suspect if they did, they’d see how dumb it is to regulate that 10,000,000 websites each implement a ton of logic to self-limit their cookies they set (hard to police, buggy) instead of telling 2-3 companies they have to make their browsers have more conservative defaults with how they keep and send cookies back. (easy to prove it’s working with testing).
The obnoxious cookie banners are not required by "idiotic EU cookie laws".
> a technical solution would be easy: default segmentation of cookies by what site you are actually visiting, plus all non-first-party ones silently expired after 60 minutes or whatever.
1. This was already implemented
2. Tracking isn't limited to cookies only
> except for the fact that the number one ad network is also the only browser vendor that matters.
Oh, so an "easy" solution isn't easy after all. Who would've thought.
> And of course they also suffer from the politicians who wrote them having no clue how any of this works.
But you do? Like how you only speak about cookies when tracking and user data isn't limited to cookies? Or how "stupid EU cookie law" doesn't even talk about cookies (if we're talking about GDPR)?
Usually the people who really have no clue are exactly the people who say that "there's an easy technical solution".
Of course, the alternative is to not use cookies, to not use any web analytics products, or to resolve to argue the semantics of what is necessary before a judge when sued by one of the many lawyers who now advertise (ironically) all over social media with come-ons like "Did you browse FUZZYSWEATERS .COM? Your data may have been improperly used!"
> 1. This was already implemented
Please let me know what browser does what I describe. Close as I can come is configuring a Chromium based browser to just only keep cookies for certain domains, but it's a pain in the butt so I stopped worrying about it a long time ago.
> Oh, so an "easy" solution isn't easy after all. Who would've thought.
But I went on to detail the much "easier" solution where the EU aims its big swinging...list of mandates... at the 2-3 browser vendors rather than involving 10,000,000 small businesses worldwide in the business of trying to guess if they're "GDPR compliant," or could be in breach because they added some snippet of code from a useful web analytics platform that could be said to "track" users.
Do you really think that it is easier and better to regulate millions of people/companies to make them all do a complex thing in good faith AND do it well, than to make those couple of companies sandbox cookie storage in a way that severely kneecaps cross-site tracking?
> 2. Tracking isn't limited to cookies only
Sure, but also I question to what extent anyone is being harmed by "tracking" in the most broad sense of that word. As far as I can tell, the public believes "tracking is a problem" primarily because they resent retargeting ads. That's all. People see a shirt or a chainsaw or an air fryer "following them around" after they browsed for one, and think "that's weird! THEY know!" Despite the fact that most of those things function very simply, do not give a shit who you are, just some ID that your browser saved and is sending back, and which is tied to a list of SKUs you showed interest in.
The more reasonable concern is more around data brokers and the data about a person being sold and aggregated, which mostly gets concerning when it could be used for stalking, targeting political dissidents, etc. The fact that I spent 34 seconds on A product page, then 32 seconds on B, then added B to my cart and then bounced, that is the nature of all of the data being tracked on 90% of websites, they don't traffic in my location data or even want to collect sensitive information. But every website is affected by the GDPR's vague definitions of "tracking." And ironically, I assume partly because all these in-sandbox "CMPs" barely even work, I haven't even observed a decrease in retargeting ads, the #1 thing that people actually observe and are bothered by.
What happened is website operators started to feel entitled to doing whatever they want with cookies on users’ machines and eventually decided to act like petulant children when the rules changed.
Adding a language select option on a multinational site seems pretty table stakes in my experience. Plenty often the user does not wish to use the same language as their system/browser. Switching your system’s default language just for one site is a huge hassle.
Re crash reporting: I’m talking about tools like Sentry. I have never once worked on a product of any scale that didn’t need to collect diagnostic reports from the field in order to address code level errors that happen as users are using the product. In house or 3rd party it doesn't matter, and client state has always been involved. A product that doesn’t function is broken. It needs to be fixed.
There is no privacy concession in any of these cases. The EPD simply over-regulates cookies.
I mean maybe we should just reimplement all this crap using indexdb. That’s not a cookie, legally.
The EPD fights symptoms not causes and the internet is worse for it.
For crash reporting: pop up a dialog asking if they'd like to submit a report (as software used to do). Don't just submit info from their computer without asking.
If literally any physical product breaks, I don't expect the manufacturer to receive telemetry so they can fix it. If I want them to fix it, I'll bring it back to them. I expect that if I don't go out of my way to tell them something, after I buy the thing, we go our separate ways, and they have no idea about anything I do. If their thing breaks, I also have the option of just not telling them and instead telling everyone else that they're crap. They don't need to spy on me for any reason.
I'm really not seeing the issue with asking consent to do things as they're actually needed. You don't need an "I CONSENT TO EVERYTHING" banner, and most of the stuff you want isn't necessary anyway.
Like I said, privacy conscious users block tools like Sentry. It's a perfect example of "no, you don't actually need to spy on me."
I think this is a way to do it, I had thought also of such a thing before. You can send a "computer payment file" which includes the product ID numbers (and parameters if applicable), the total price that the customer expects to pay, a signature, and encrypted data for use with the bank or credit card company (or some specification of store credit, if you are using that instead).
The existing use of "shopping cart" cookie can still be available as an alternative as well though, in case you do not want to use (or cannot use) the "computer payment file"; then it can provide its UI but you can also use your own if you have your own implementation.
> Adding a language select option on a multinational site seems pretty table stakes in my experience. Plenty often the user does not wish to use the same language as their system/browser. Switching your system’s default language just for one site is a huge hassle.
This is true. However, it would also be helpful to be able to change the settings (including languages, and HTTP request headers) per URL prefix, which would also be another way. This does not mean that the setting cannot also be available as a cookie, which will override the Accept-Language header if both are present in the request.
There is also user authentication; cookies are not really the best way to do that either. I think X.509 client certificates are a better way. However, other methods can still be provided for compatibility for users who do want to use it.
And then, there is more other stuff too, they can also be done in other ways.
Note that all of the above stuff means that many things can work with JavaScripts and cookies disabled (or unavailable), but enabling them will provide a way of working that does not require these other things too.
Pretty sure this exact example is explicitly carved out as a-okay.
I think what we're dealing with here is not websites trying to do basic things. Rather, it's every website and their mom thinking they need elaborate analytics to sell plastic garbage.
Yes, that elaborate analytics you spread to 20 third parties IS a privacy concern. We should be looking at that.
I do not like using the legal basis of "consent" for processing personal data, and I would much prefer not to need to use consent for placing cookies. As it is, in my personal capacity I can get away without placing cookies at all .
If we had access to other lawful bases for placing cookies, I'd like to think we could work out way towards phasing out any blanket consent. I'm sure "legitimate interests" would be abused and over-relied-on. But it already is, and if we're not arguing with people about whether the "consent" they rely on is legitimate then maybe we'll have more time to worry about whether companies are using other bases appropriately.
There are 24 states that require ID to view porn sites. The laws are being completely ignored by popular websites that are not based in the US.
I’m not sure the lack of a global hegemony is a “problem”.
https://reason.com/2025/01/24/age-verification-laws-meet-vpn...
> ”Google searches for online tools like VPNs have surged in Florida after Pornhub, one of the world's largest adult websites, blocked access to users in the state," CBS News reported earlier this month. "Since the end of November, Google searches for VPNs have surged in the Florida, according to Google Trends. From the week of Dec. 22 - 28 to Dec. 29 - Jan. 4, searches nearly doubled. Since then, the numbers have gone even higher."
How is the this a problem for ISPs coöperating with law enforcement?
* you get caught up in the moment, hell bent on solving the problem you don’t really think twice
* you don’t want to get that stink on you, you don’t want to be that guy that brings this type of stuff up
* you are mindful of the fact that you are being very well compensated to build it and you don’t want to lose your job
* you know it’s going to fall on deaf ears - maybe they will pay lip service, maybe they won’t but either way nothing will happen
* in the back of your mind you figure someone else is fighting the good fight
On and on, so many different things can go through your mind, who knows which it’ll be on any given day, on any given project
Today it's an automatic subtitle generator for people with hearing difficulties. Tomorrow it'll be an AI training data generator. In a year, the NSA will re-purpose it into a mass surveillance tool.
I did some work in the early 2010s that we expected to be used for computational photography, gaming, and little else. Years later, after I had already left the company, its primary use case became image stabilization for quadcopter drones, something that had not crossed our minds at all when we were building that stuff.
Cue in all the drone footage from the Russian invasion of Ukraine. FUCK. FUCK FUCK.
For example, I don't think there's anyone in the (large!) fixed-odds betting terminal industry that can honestly say their work is a good thing for the end users.
I don’t know that a reasonable person would compare privacy threats to the threat of death from gun violence.
They exist in totally different altitudes of concern.
I disagree. Solutions should be technical whenever possible, because in practice, laws tend to be abused and/or not enforced. Laws also need resources and cooperation to be enforced, and some laws are hard to enforce without creating backdoors or compromising other rights.
"ISPs will be prohibited from spying on their customers" doesn't mean ISPs won't spy on their customers.
> this paper addressed passive attacks, where the attacker controls only a receiver, but exploits the normal Wi-Fi traffic. In this case, the only useful traffic for the attacker comes from transmitters that are perfectly fixed and whose position is well known and stable, so that the NN can be trained in advance, thus the obfuscator needs to be installed only in APs or similar ‘infrastructure’ devices. Active attacks, where the attacker controls both the transmitter and the receiver are another very interesting research area, where, however, privacy protection cannot be based on randomization at the transmitter.
https://github.com/ansresearch/csi-murder/
> The experimental results obtained in our laboratory show that the considered localization method (first proposed in an MSc thesis) works smoothly regardless of the environment, and that adding random information to the CSI mess up the localization, thus providing the community with a system that preserve location privacy and communication performance at the same time.
ISPs will always have the ability to at least deduce whether a connection was used, the MAC address, and it there is WiFi, unfortunately whether people are physically present.
If we look at the roadmap for WiFi/phones/etc, they will soon gain the ability to map out your home, including objects, using consumer radios.
This isn't really true. The easiest technical solution to the problem of ISPs using your wifi data is to simply use your own WiFi router which does not send the data to them.
pay him with a pack of beer
Sure, this has a fair amount of truth to it. However, security is not a social problem, it's an economic one. No one, not even the most well funded and skilled organizations like the NSA, has access to infinite resources. Whether a given attack/data harvesting effort costs $1 million, $10 thousand, $100, $1, or $0.01 makes an enormous difference in impact. Can a given three letter agency afford to spend $1m on anyone? Sure. Can they afford it against everyone? No. Same with private orgs, if harvesting data costs $10000/person, it has to generate well over that much money in profit to make it worth it. Is that likely on average? Probably not. If it costs fractions of a cent, then they will be incentivized to scale it as hard as possible, since payoff from even one person will cover thousands of duds.
So sure, by all means we should pursue laws too, as that also shifts costs a bit. But there is zero reason not to simultaneously pursue technical means to make costs as high as possible. Both tracks matter a lot.
The obvious solution is to not use that device. But that’s not necessarily possible for a variety of reasons, not all of them controllable.
So, what is the technical solution to this? Anything that’s going to mask a persons RF signal is probably going to make WiFi difficult to use. Anything at the network level is already lost because we have a potentially hostile device in a critical point in the network path.
Am I missing a different solution?
Are you? Comments are full of obvious solutions like using your own hardware, which you clearly understand.
>We’re talking about a device in a home that the owner doesn’t control
No, we definitely are not. As you yourself immediately acknowledge:
>The obvious solution is to not use that device. But that’s not necessarily possible for a variety of reasons, not all of them controllable.
...but then immediately try to do a fuzzy hand wave it away for reasons I don't really understand. Technical solutions don't have to be completely perfect, which is surely not a standard you're holding any social/legal solution to right? Since that would be ridiculous.
As I said, simultaneously pursuing multiple tracks in parallel is the correct approach, as hybrids can be more then the sum of their parts. A purely legal solution ("law against ISPs collecting this data"), if it's even possible to get passed at all, ends up depending heavily on the honor system with all sorts of perverse incentives, and is very challenging to verify. A purely technical solution ("use your own hardware", "route through another end point") could potentially be interfered with (though let's be clear: this isn't actually a thing basically ever). But we can easily imagine hybrid approaches, just as was done in the past with efforts like CableCARD. The law doesn't need to necessarily try to mandate and police hard to verify behavior like how non-property owner controlled hardware acts, but instead can mandate that ISPs must always allow direct dumb interfaces to their network via customer controlled hardware. That's something easy to verify, which enhances compliance, and easy to understand which enhances the politics.
But make no mistake: the technical aspect is an inseparable part of this approach. We need both.
Comcast cannot administer my router/AP or modem.
Some other ISP's like AT&T force you to use their gateway. I try and avoid these companies or severely limit the functions of the built in gateway.
Edit: sorry my question is not strictly how one person would mangle their hardware so it breaks presence detection, it’s how the tech industry would develop an at scale everyday consumer solution to this problem.
Require that each privacy waiver is individually initialed, per clause, in wet ink.
This shit would end tomorrow if they had to start delivering modems with 1 inch high letters that said "THIS DEVICE WILL TRACK YOUR LOCATION WITHIN YOUR HOME AND SHARE THAT DATA WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE", and the modem didn't work until you went down to the Comcast store to sign your rights away.
You don't have to force anything except taking this knowledge out of the fine print and prove that your customers are actually aware of the contractual clauses they are subject to.
The tech industry could come together and come up with a privacy standard guarantee that device manufacturers could use (Something as simple as, we will never share data with law enforcement unless legally compelled).
There's a lot of solutions, ranging from technical (firmware update) to social (pass some laws with teeth).
I have the urge to laugh at this, but maybe I'm just too cynical. Pretty sure we still live in an age where most people would let go of principles like privacy for a bit of convenience.
Every house should look like a party of 50.
Invest in potatoes
I guess you could put it in a cage. Maybe I should go door to door selling privacy cages. Do people pay for tinfoil hats these days?
I don't know, how many people that didn't care much about privacy said things like "There is no way the US government would deport US citizens" 7 months ago.
Only with cash.
Encryption is a technical solution trying to solve the problem of people being able to steal your data/money without your knowledge.
The law/police are the solution to the 5 dollar wrench problem, where you are very aware of the attack but unable to physically stop it
The law is there to enforce the “rule of law”
It’s a little ambiguous because the phrase is in English and doesn’t match up 1:1 with the common vernacular, but I want the “rule of law” to enforce that the rules are real, not to prevent someone from testing their existence
The parent commenter was highlighting that law enforcement can compel them to provide the data.
The customer has to opt-in to WiFi motion sensing to have the data tracked. If you see something appear in an app, you should assume law enforcement can compel the company to provide that data. It's not really a surprise.
> If we rely on legal protection, then not only Comcast, but all ISPs will be prohibited from spying on their customers.
To be clear, the headline on HN is editorialized. The linked article is instructions for opting in to WiFi motion sensing and going through the setup and calibration. It's a feature they provide for customers to enable and use for themselves.
> The customer has to opt-in to WiFi motion sensing to have the data tracked.
- Is this true if Law Enforcement gets a subpoena?
- Is this true if Law Enforcement asks "nicely"?
- Can Xfinity activate it without the user knowing?
- Does it explicitly notify the user when the setting has been changed? (e.g. done by LE, hacker, or an abusive partner)
- Is this a promise and a promise that by default it will stay off?
- Is the code to perform this feature pre-installed and able to be trivially (or even non-trivially) activated by hackers?
Your honor, they clearly opted in to us spying on absolutely everything they do or think.
Yea, at least in the US you have almost zero consumer rights around this.
Once they find some marketing firm to sell the data to suddenly it will be come opt-out in a new update and most people will blindly hit agree without having a clue what it's about.
"Best we can do is letting all the AI companies hoover up your data too"
I expect more than a few commenters here will disagree with you. Some rather vehemently.
To those that do so, I'd encourage you to read the novel Attack Surface by Cory Doctorow. While it's fiction, in the book, Doctorow makes a pretty compelling argument for the notion that when it comes to privacy, we can't win by "out tech'ing" the governments and corporations. We're simply too heavily out-resourced. If I'm interpreting his message correctly, he is saying basically what Josho is saying here: that we have to use the political/legal system to get the privacy protections that we care about enshrined into law and properly enforced.
Now, is that going to be easy? Hell no. But after reading the book I was largely sold on the idea, FWIW. That said, the two approaches aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. But I do believe that those of us who care about privacy should focus more on using our (knowledge|skills|resources) to try to foster change through politics, than on trying to beat "them" with better tech.
YMMV, of course. But if you haven't read the book, at least consider giving it a shot. Probably Doctorow makes the argument better than I can.
Laws can be broken. Laws of physics cannot. Best to utilize both a legal and physical defense.
Problem is, most folks aren't aware of how much spying the ISP routers do, and they want the most easy and convenient choice. Hence the status quo.
Unfortunately, only the nerdiest nerds do things like buy their own routers...and that sort of thing is pretty much impossible to evangelize.
do not buy any device from comcast you dont fully control!
A legal precedent easily leads to a technical block.
It should be both, one serving as a backup to the other. Theft is illegal, yet we lock our doors.
Technical solutions tend to last longer. Legal solutions have a habit of being ignored when they become inconvenient.
The legal default should be that collecting this sort of data should always be illegal without informed consent and never used beyond the remit of that consent. As inconvenient as it sometimes is, the world needs GDPR.
Why not? Just run your own router instead of the one your ISP tries to give you.
"Motion is detected based on the amount of signal disruption taking place between the Xfinity Gateway and your selected WiFi-connected devices, so motion from small pets (around 40 pounds or less) can be filtered out while keeping you notified of large movements more likely to be caused by humans."
This means, respectively: ensure personal info is stored securely so hackers can recover little. Don't transmit info to remote servers to limit what advertisers get. And just store as little as possible in the first place because this is the legal means to have little to subpoena or discover.
Useful info, when absolutely necessary, should be locked behind a password, as constitutional rights preclude law enforcement from making someone disclose it.
It’s almost a legal impossibility and would be a bad move geopolitically to give up this full take capability and it is not happening. It’s wishful thinking to believe otherwise.
The irony is that all of these metadata leaks and correlation attacks etc were theoretical at the time these technologies were created and developed, unless you’re NSA level compute power, both human and silicon. Now, any script kid has enough info to try to build an array of SDRs to do the same thing, and no one will care when they do besides the feds who cry foul about their turf being stepped on by plebeians. The public will never care because their eyes will already have glazed over once you mention MAC addresses and SSIDs.
It doesn't particularly matter what hobbyists get up to. It matters what's available at scale on the mass market, what's widely deployed, what data is legally permissible to collect on a large scale, and what data is legal to sell.
Law enforcement can't subpoena that which does not exist. The best defense to these sorts of things is often to place legal limits on collection, retention, and sale.
Your take is both alarmist and defeatist.
Legal limits on national security agencies are not enforceable due to Five Eyes etc. Allied foreign spies do what American spies don’t. I’m just admitting the political reality of the situation. What you do with that information may be limited, but it’s not a failing on my part that this is the status quo.
You're not talking about what they're talking about. They're talking about limiting corporate data collection. If companies don't build this into routers, then 99% of routers won't be collecting this data, and foreign spies won't have any data to steal.
Laws are powerful enough to stop that.
> wiretaps
I said 99%, not 100%.
> any third party in range of the WiFi network can likely do the same thing passively
But they won't do it in bulk without a lot of motivation (like profit).
I guess if you’re truly concerned you shouldn’t have WiFi at home or a mobile phone. Too bad 5G signals have similar capabilities, but at least the signals don’t propagate as well.
That ... might or might not be an issue, but it's not _this_ issue, ie the one we were originally talking about here.
A targeted order to wiretap (or otherwise spy on) a specific person or entity is entirely different from widespread data collection, retention, and sale for whatever corporate purpose. With widespread collection the data is then sitting there in a data lake waiting to be subpoenaed by law enforcement at their leisure for any arbitrary reason they happen to think up potentially years in the future.
> they are going to be legally compelled to do them, so the network structure’s form follows that function
You can't be compelled to hand over that which you do not have. Neither can you be compelled to modify your product in a particular manner absent market wide legislation; see FBI v Apple if you doubt that.
I do see what you mean, but they are differences of degree, not kind. It could be considered a best practice to minimize PII etc, but even other groups don’t do any better. Signal still uses phone numbers.
> > they are going to be legally compelled to do them, so the network structure’s form follows that function
> You can't be compelled to hand over that which you do not have. Neither can you be compelled to modify your product in a particular manner absent market wide legislation; see FBI v Apple if you doubt that.
I agree. However, Apple is also confident enough in their legal team, reasoning, funding, and likely legal outcomes that they will flout NSLs in America, and yet they will cave to UK in that they disabled Apple’s Advanced Data Protection (in UK) which means that iCloud files aren’t really E2EE if the government can just say that you can’t do that anymore. Not your keys, not your files and the security and privacy of said effects thereof.
Is that not literally the entire purpose of the legal system?
> will likely not do anything that isn’t implemented by standards bodies, such as WiFi standards
I imagine beamforming techniques are only going to become more commonplace over time.
> Once Comcast has the data, it is available to law enforcement via the Third Party Doctrine
Unless they were legally obligated to purge it from their servers after a few weeks. Or if they employed E2EE so as not to have access to the data in the first place.
> Is that not literally the entire purpose of the legal system?
The legal system is subverted by the national security apparatus by necessity and by design. The information gathered by ISPs is necessary to prevent interference with ground-based radars around airports, and is necessary for fraud detection and internal security of the network. It would be feasible to make it so that this information would be gathered and retained only for a short period of time to establish and maintain network integrity, such as handshakes and other bits and bytes exchanged and retained inherent to the protocols used. The legal doctrines that establish the legality of full take surveillance have been argued before FISA courts, so an act of Congress or a test case would likely be necessary to prompt any legal reexamination of the relevant issues. However, national security issues are not really able to be resolved legislatively, because executive orders will always enable that which cannot be done on the books, which presupposes that which is done is done by the book to begin with.
What is done in the shadows must stay obscured due to means and methods, and this ideology isn’t amenable to change, political or otherwise. There is not much else to say on that point as it is observational and experiential based on my lived experience and history of interactions with law enforcement, national security professionals, and private security as a service provider and former licensed security guard, as well as being a victim of police overreach and charge stacking. I’ve worked with law enforcement and been work for law enforcement. I’ve fought the law to a draw, and I’ve fought the law and lost due to bad calls by refs. I’m working on becoming a better citizen and community member so that I can be a helper. More than that, I can’t say. The future is hopeful and yet the challenges are real, and changing. Old guards are giving way to young Turks. It’s an interesting time to be alive.
> > will likely not do anything that isn’t implemented by standards bodies, such as WiFi standards
> I imagine beamforming techniques are only going to become more commonplace over time.
The beamforming and other technologies used with modern WiFi are what enable the motion detection “for free” because the WiFi signals act as radar signals, the contours of the perturbations of which are already baked into the WiFi protocol. It’s insecure by design against this side channel attack.
> > Once Comcast has the data, it is available to law enforcement via the Third Party Doctrine
> Unless they were legally obligated to purge it from their servers after a few weeks. Or if they employed E2EE so as not to have access to the data in the first place.
You would have to reimplement the standards to make everything that squawks rotate their identifiers regularly, ideally after every transmission. It’s possible I suppose. I don’t think the political will is there to mandate this, and there are not that many people who work on these kinds of problems. Look at who created TOR. You’d have to run that kind of system everywhere, and only use it for everything, and that system would have to be part of the protocol or otherwise unable to be disabled by end users. Otherwise, you’re at the status quo we have now, where the weak links are the first to break.
If this sounds like a stretch, the weak links are always people, not protocols or pipes. That’s why this is magical thinking. As principled as you and I are, bad guys don’t have principles. Those who fight bad guys have principles, and they also have more coffee and mathematicians and hashrate.
Congress will never rule against the national security apparatus because there is no political will to do so. I can count on one hand the folks in Congress who are on relevant committees to even consider legislation on these matters who is in any way critical at all, and they largely agree with you that something needs to be done. But they don’t have the votes to do anything because the issues aren’t relevant to voters. No one cares the way you or I do, or they would probably become lawyers or politicians, as well as soldiers and broadcasters.
If you think something constructive and positive needs to be done, I would likely agree that the impetus for change exists. I’m all ears.
Unless you put your own gateway (layer 3 switch, wifi ap, linux router) in front of it.
Putting your phone in airplane mode doesn't make it think you have left the house.
> If you’d like to prevent your pet’s movement from causing motion notifications, you can exclude pet motion in your WiFi Motion settings by turning on the Exclude Small Pets feature. > Motion is detected based on the amount of signal disruption taking place between the Xfinity Gateway and your selected WiFi-connected devices, so motion from small pets (around 40 pounds or less) can be filtered out while keeping you notified of large movements more likely to be caused by humans.
There are a multitude of pre-existing ways of achieving the same result. One would be simply looking at the ft^2 listed on the public tax documents for the given address.
So I was really assuming any useful analysis would require them to be the actual man in the middle by owning and controlling your router. In which case address family does not matter.
Isn't this basically impossible with IPv6 Privacy Extension Addresses?
The technical solution seems strictly preferable
Legal "protections" only protect you up the moment a warrant is issued, if that
you also cant associate it to a person automatically. the burden of proof is high - how many jurors have tech at home they know nothing about and maybe got hacked?
The solution can be technical, but only if it is also sneaky. Blocking or disallowing certain information is one thing but making that information worthless is better. A simple AI agent could pretend to ping all sorts of services. It could even do some light websurfing. This fake traffic would nullify any value from the real traffic, destroying the market that feeds this surveillance industry.
I see a UI that allows homeowners to fake certain people being in the house when they are not, either replaying traffic or a selection of generic bots that mimic the traffic of various cohorts.
The solution is to not use the internet if you care about your privacy.
Us humans love building the Torment Nexus.
Wifi imaging is a bit like a silhouette and generally accurate enough to work out gait and height which could give a good indication of which people are in what locations in a home. That is some very scary power in the hands of a corpo.
They will only see traffic coming from 1 local IP - of your wireless AP
They provide a modem / router combination device at even their cheapest tier.
That device can leverage this technology, and the technology isn’t reliant on traffic.
They can gather plenty, and can provide it to third parties without our knowledge or consent.
What you're missing, is that you are allowed to use your own modem. You can purchase an Arris Surfboard, and use that.
They still have control of that modem, but can gather no downstream data. That the devices are not distributed by Comcast personally is not relevant to you being able to do this.
I mean, I suppose it's got the additional step of calling Comcast and giving them the MAC of your modem, but IIRC that's all I had to do after buying one on their approved list. Been at least 7-8 years since I had them, though.
You can plug-and-play with a consumer "router", but even then you need to know the difference between WAN and LAN sides. So the extra effort seems minimal.
Most people don't know how to set up either one. I know when the fiber techs came to my house to set me up they were greatly impressed at my (fairly basic; I don't do this for a living) networking knowledge.
I have been using my setup for 9 years and never paid a dime in rent of equipment.
the setup is plug-n-play / one youtube video away
Most people use the hardware that is provided with the service by default. Last time I checked, there's not even an additional rental fee.
https://www.xfinity.com/support/articles/list-of-approved-ca...
I can't believe I'm defending Comcast on the internet but here I am, I guess between them and you I'm siding with the entity currently being less of an ass to me?
Mimicking my speech pattern then trying to say I’m being the ass is not going to hold up, however.
Elsewhere I posted that I used to work in this space and have first-hand knowledge that the majority of people do not use third party modems. That is a fact.
Just because people can go out and purchase a new modem and then additional wifi gear, doesn’t mean that they do or even should to shield themselves from the potential privacy violations happening here.
You edited your comment to delete that, so I'll also retract my calling you an ass.
I agree with basically everything else you said.
Of course, most people won't do this, but that's besides the point.
they typically issue a modem / router combination unit, and they can control the router and its radios.
I used to work in this space, and have first-hand knowledge about the prevalence of third party modems with a sample set of over 100k people. What’s your experience?
Edit: thanks for the downvote! The few I clicked on their website have weak ratings but they are rated much better on Amazon.
you can bring your own modem & AP
Which is one of the main reasons I bought my own modem.
buy your own DOCSIS modem from Amazon and your own wireless AP. Separate AP is needed, because Comcast has some form of control over DOCSIS modem (they can reboot and send config to your modem)
problem solved
Kind of, but I'll bet most homes would frequently also appear "empty" any time the occupants are asleep. Not everyone gets up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night.
Sounds like the above claim amounts to nothing more than, “trust me bro.” Or, rather, that that nothing stops them from monitoring it, other than the cost, as they haven’t monetized it yet.
Which you can simply not do if you don't trust your ISP not to misuse it. Which is why I never run my ISP's router, I run my own instead.
[Note: this should be illegal]
> If you’d like to prevent your pet’s movement from causing motion notifications, you can exclude pet motion in your WiFi Motion settings by turning on the Exclude Small Pets feature. > Motion is detected based on the amount of signal disruption taking place between the Xfinity Gateway and your selected WiFi-connected devices, so motion from small pets (around 40 pounds or less) can be filtered out while keeping you notified of large movements more likely to be caused by humans.
It's an opt-in feature. If you don't set it up, they aren't generating the home/away chart like shown in the article.
As the salty water meatbags move from room to room we change how the reflections and scattering patterns of 2.4 and 5GHz waves move. Studying these changes and some calibration, you can even determine small changes (like is the person on the left side of the room breathing, are they standing or prone, etc).
In their docs, they show using the WiFi connection from a printer to determine motion sensing and have the option to exclude pets.
For someone breathing or a heartbeat you need much higher GHz signal. Usually this is done at 30ghz to 60ghz. The power flux leaving the antenna has an inverse square drop off rate which makes this basically impractical unless your standing directly in front of it.
I'd really like to actually see it in person to really grasp the limitations.
If they have access to your router and its logs, they can simply check whether your mobile device was in WiFi range at that time.
Sure, mobile devices can be turned off, but at that point, so can routers.
In 99.9% of circumstances, it's a "nothing burger" from a law enforcement perspective, except maybe for detecting actual crime occurring when no residents are home.
Using your mobile data and internet traffic is far easier and already deeply integrated into off the shelf law enforcement products. Those progams are even more terrifying than this by an order of magnitude.
The purpose of that clause isn’t to allow them to cooperate with law enforcement. That’s a given. It’s to avoid problems with you when they do, so they have something to point to and say “we did warn you.” Law supersedes private contracts. They could write “we will never give your information to law enforcement” but all that means is that they’ll be forced to break the contract when that happens.
Subject to applicable law, Comcast may disclose information generated by your WiFi Motion to third parties without further notice to you in connection with any law enforcement investigation or proceeding, any dispute to which Comcast is a party, or pursuant to a court order or subpoena.
This is scary, particularly considering how the current administration wants to weaponize everything they possibly can.
Yes. It's an invasion of privacy inside peoples' homes.
If anyone knows a way around this, please share! I want to connect my Xfinity ONT directly to my UniFi router.
Pun intended I'm sure!
https://www.slashdot.org/story/25/06/26/2124252/comcasts-new...
Apparently you can get 1/2gbit ethernet only modems without wifi. You don't save any money over using their equipment.
I did it several months ago, including the optional adding an outbound firewall rule dropping forwarded UDP/TCP 53 traffic (I tried the redirect rule suggested there first, but it didn't work and the firewall ruleset failed to load, so a drop will have to do. I didn't bother investigating why, because everything on my LANs is configured to use the router as their only nameserver anyway).
I also added a rule dropping it from the router itself in case something breaks, for example if it suddenly decides to start honouring the DHCP-received nameserver addresses (my ISP) despite being configured not to.
EDIT: The article doesn't make this clear, but the bootstrap section is only necessary if you specify upstream nameservers by name (e.g. "https://dns.cloudflare.com/dns-query"). This is not required. For example, you can configure a manual upstream of "tls://1.1.1.1" like I did, and then it doesn't need to do any DNS lookups at all, so does not need to be configured with bootstrap servers, so will not break if you add the 2 firewall rules I mentioned.
[1] https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/services/dns/dot_dnsmasq...
Now I do remember some issues getting it to maintain a stable connection to the DSL network at some points, which even daisy-chaining another router wouldn't have fixed. No way to tell if that was the gateway or just the DSL network that was flaky.
I think they're referring to when you leave your home. Your device(s) will be constantly broadcasting probe requests for the hidden network.
The away-from-home probe requests wouldn't be that useful for mapping, but your AP/router is equally useful for mapping with or without broadcasting the SSID. Hiding your SSID just means it sets the SSID to null in the beacon frames but it's still sending out beacon frames with its far-more-unique MAC address (BSSID). If you're on linux you can see this pretty easily by running `sudo iw dev wlan0 scan`. The "hidden" wifi networks will have their SSID as "SSID: \x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00" but all the other information including MAC address is still there. Personally it seems there are two "hidden" wifi networks within range of my bedroom.
Any time you go out in public your devices are crying out looking for your home AP. If someone can figure out which are you, e.g. by seeing you multiple times in different places they can then go look up where you live based on your home's SSID broadcasts.
Naturally, there is no way for me to opt out of this.
Other people have mentioned that not using Comcast's stuff means that certain features won't be available, but I don't care. I don't have huge bandwidth needs, for instance.
Sigh.
XFinity lets you make HTTP requests to the web via your router. Uh-oh: XFinity decided to sell info on your web requests on the Dark Web.
None of the above.
The setup process has you select 3 reference devices. You should pick the devices so that your normal motion areas are between the device and the router.
The router then watches the WiFi signals from those devices. If they fluctuate more than baseline, it's assumed that something is moving around in the area.
It's a threshold detection that can serve as a crude motion sensor for home/away purposes.
Interesting, mind sharing links to these?
I found a GitHub repo for "ESP32-CSI-Tool" that seems related to Wi-Fi Sensing, but zero references to "FreqSense" in the Wi-Fi/RF context.
The only FreqSense I found is an obscure academic paper on speech recognition that doesn't involve any form of hardware.
They can also be programmed to detect people on the floor, so if you have elderly in your house you can know if someone fell, without cameras. They are made for hospitals but are cheap, but not 100% accurate for HR and falls, but reliable enough for security, and cheap.
Wifi is something most people already have available, and requires no new wiring or battery management. That's the selling point.
> Activating the feature
> WiFi Motion is off by default. To activate the feature, perform the following steps:
The actual title of the article is "Using WiFi Motion in the Xfinity app".
These days it is never safe to assume that opting-in does anything more than making some of the information that's being collected regardless available.
Although I actually agree with you that it probably isn't doing anything by default to the extent that it isn't doing anything yet because it's new they haven't worked out how to monetize it.
Here's how this level of scum works in reality:
At first: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3017694
Eventually: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39709991
If I was advising Comcast, I'd tell them this is a dumb thing to introduce because just the perception of bad behavior is not worth any particular benefit, but whatever. I can't imagine someone deciding they want a Comcast plan because it offers this, and there's no way for them to monetize it without almost assured legal backlash.
I'm not about to find out. I really liked Hyatt, too.
I have a condition that requires complex and ongoing care, and sometimes need to be admitted briefly for same. Refusing to sign consent forms prevents that and gets you on to the “this guy isn’t going to pay us, get him out of here asap” list.
Normally the pathway for this kind of thing would be:
1. theorized
2. proven in a research lab
3. not feasible in real-world use (fizzles and dies)
if you're lucky the path is like
1. theorized
2. proven in a research lab
3. actually somewhat feasible in real-world use!
4. startups / researchers split off to attempt to market it (fizzles and dies)
the fact that this ended up going from research paper to "Comcast can tell if I'm home based on my body's physical interaction with wifi waves" is absolutely wild
The ability to do this is a necessity for a comm system working in a reflective environment: cancel out the reflections with an adaptive filter, residual is now a high-pass result of the motion. It's the same concept that makes your cell location data so profitable, and how 10G ethernet is possible over copper, with the hybrid front end cancelling reflections from kinks in the cable (and why physical wiggling the cable will cause packet CRC errors). It's, quite literally, "already there" for almost every modern MIMO system, just maybe not exposed for use.
The 15-year path was roughly:
1. bespoke military use (see+shoot through wall)
2. bespoke law-enforcement use (occupancy, activity)
3. public research papers by MIT and others
4. open firmware for Intel modems
5. 1000+ research papers using open firmware
6. bespoke offensive/criminal/state malware
7. bespoke commercial niche implementations
8. IEEE standardization (802.11bf)
9. (very few) open-source countermeasures
10. ISP routers implementing draft IEEE standard
11. (upcoming) many new WiFi 7+ devices with Sensing features
> There is one area that the IEEE is not working on, at least not directly: privacy and security.. IEEE fellow and member of the Wi-Fi sensing task group.. the goal is to focus on “at least get the sensing measurements done.” He says that the committee did discuss privacy and security: “Some individuals have raised concerns, including myself.” But they decided that while those concerns do need to be addressed, they are not within the committee’s mandate.
Because we all know, of course, the Constitution only applies to the federal government, right? If mega-corporation USA Inc uses its shell company Comcast to violate the Supreme law of the land in a treasonous manner, then you are of course SOL asa mere citizen since they aren’t the federal government and the Constitution does not apply to them.
In case it want clear, that was sarcasm.
In case people missed it:
https://theconversation.com/from-help-to-harm-how-the-govern...
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/07/even-government-thinks...
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/28/government...
Even within tech circles, lots of people aren’t worried about privacy and even have indoor cameras in their homes.
I wanted to talk about how responsible WiFi router software authors can make things local-only (and I've done that in the past; no way to get this information even if I wanted it). But this is always temporary when "they" can push an update to your router at any time. One day the software is trustworthy, they next day it's not, via intentional removal of privacy features or by virtue of a dumb bug that you probably should have written a unit test for. Comcast is getting attention for saying they're doing this, but anyone who pushes firmware updates to your WiFi router can do this tomorrow if they feel like it. A strong argument in favor of "maybe I'll just run NixOS on an Orange Pi as my router", because at least you get the final say in what code runs.
This is the kind of stuff that pushes me to pull a Ron Swanson and throw my technology in the dumpster.
The core of the sensing technology is about improving MU-MIMO + OFDM + all the other speed tricks. Human bodies interfere in predictable ways so you need the tech to steer around that. As a side effect, you get detection capabilities for free.
In such a setup, your laptop and router already know where you are. The question is whether or not to offer it to you so you can use that information for things like home automation. Had they not made this part of the protocol, the privacy risks were just as bad, you just wouldn't be aware of them.
Commercialization gives consumers and regulators the opportunity to express their opinions on the sudden and unsolicited transparency of the walls, floors and ceilings of their homes and businesses.
TSA can check your heart rate / breathing rate elevating during your walk through security.
Casinos can see your heart spike before placing a bet. If the system is digital maybe that can be synced to always deal a loss hand.
What's the economic value of remote collection of human behavioral signatures without consent, integrated with AI and robotics and "digital twins"? We're not there yet, but if the technology continues improving, what's the future value of "motion capture" of humans without body-worn sensors?
In theory, this will enable "Minority Report" user interfaces. 3D gestures could be combined with "AI" voice interfaces. Biometric authentication (e.g. heart rate) could replace passwords. Walk into a room and it adapts itself to your preferences. Etc.
There are lots of "cool" Jetsons sci-fi use cases, but ONLY IF the data and automation are entirely under control of the human subjects, e.g. self-hosted home server, local GPUs, local LLM, local voice recognition, etc.
1. Black tape over our webcams to keep them from watching us.
2. Cardboard over our windows to keep laser microphones from hearing us.
3. RFID blocking wallets to keep our money safe from them.
4. WiFi motion detectors watching our every move in our own home. <---You are here.--->
5. Aluminum underwear keeping our private parts from being scanned into AI at airports.
6. Tinfoil hats protecting our thoughts.
I wonder if they have enough information to make out shapes or if it's just a simple rangefinder?
I used to recommend using your own cable modem as well, but these days you have to use the Xfinity modem to avoid overages if you're in a market with data caps.
Comcast has a stellar network operations unit, but their business operations are creepy and exploitative.
> The IEEE plans to take the concepts for Wi-Fi sensing from the proprietary system built by Cognitive (which has been licensed to Qualcomm and also Plume) and create a standard interface for how the chips calculate interference that determines where in space an object is.
Other firmware sensing capability: https://www.cognitivesystems.com/caregiver/
- Activity Tracking: Detects movement patterns to identify changes in daily routines to spot health concerns
- Sleep Monitoring: Tracks sleep duration, wake times and nighttime interruptions to assess sleep quality
- Anomaly Detection: Establishes household baseline to proactively identify unusual patterns & changes in activityAs far as I can tell, devices were already on the market when that thread was made. 802.11bf was standardization to help along interoperability and future products.
This device alone is capable of doing a lot, but when combined with other sensing devices such as a WIFI motion detection system, you can create a system where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. First, you may not even need to monitor water flow now because detecting a person in the bathroom, moving about, is sufficient to detect toilet usage followed by hand-wash, and shower usage. You will know duration of each. You may be able to distinguish people in a residence, which means you'll learn who did what throughout a household.
Right about now you may be wondering who would ever want to know this kind of stuff? Who cares if you just used the toilet and didn't wash your hands? Who cares if you frequently use the toilet, or wash your hands excessively, or frequently and excessively wash your hands throughout the day? What if you are a landlord with a tenant leasing agreement stipulating no one other than the listed members on the contract shall occupy the residence without permission of the landlord (with exceptions, of course).
https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/8/20905223/linksys-aware-me...
"WiFi Motion, Cognitive’s Wi-Fi Sensing solution, is an innovative software platform that leverages AI and sophisticated algorithms to transform existing Wi-Fi signals into a motion sensing network."
Another company operating in this space is Origin Wireless. They demonstrated breathing detection with WiFi in 2017[1]. They've since partnered with ISPs to offer a WiFi Sensing "TruShield" home security service.[2]
[0]https://www.cognitivesystems.com/
[1]https://www.engadget.com/2017-10-09-origin-wireless-motion-d...
Comcast in general has a long history of snooping around and messing with users' traffic. Not that the alternatives are much better. Regular folks are screwed on this matter.
But perhaps for HNers setting up your own trusted WIFI AP and routing it (and all other traffic) through an internet gateway that routes your traffic over a secure channel (whatever that is for you, Tor, VPN services, VPN over your own cloud/vps,etc..) is ideal. It goes without saying, your DNS traffic should also not be visible to the ISPs.
Keep in mind that they sell all this data (including the motion data) not just to law enforcement but to arbitrary well-paying data brokers and other clients.
> Comcast does not monitor the motion and/or notifications generated by the service.
> This feature is currently only available for select Xfinity Internet customers as part of an early access preview.
> WiFi Motion is off by default.
Features like this at Comcast are typically one or two engineers on a random team coming up with a cool idea, testing it out, and if it works, they ask if they can roll it out en-masse. If it's just a software or server/backend thing and it doesn't have any negative impact, it gets accepted. Despite their terrible customer service and business practices, they do some cool stuff sometimes. They also release a fair bit of home-grown stuff as open source, which is expensive and time-consuming, but [they hope] it attracts engineers.
This doesn't mean that they can't monitor motion (e.g. as compelled via NSL). This product sorely needs E2EE.
We need to be finding the xfinity wifi hotspots in our neighborhoods, knock on doors, and help people understand the risks they are creating for themselves and their neighbors and how to setup their own routers.
Something like a belly dance belt around the router could also work.
- Shielded rooms + wired networking
- Shielded rooms + Li-Fi (wireless with light instead of radio)
It is clearly just monitoring RSSI and everybody's acting like this is some spooky radar based technology.
Everyone would follow suit, or would they? See the movie and find out!
I'm boring. I want a pipe, like a water pipe for data, and I'll do the rest. This makes them actively combative.
Ignoring the whole TV/landline stuff they keep pushing as that's too easy a target, they are actively hostile about just using internet.
It was way cheaper to use their modem. About $15/mo. Why? Because they want a huge hotspot network in every house. They swear it won't affect speed, but as I never got close to advertised speeds, I didn't believe that. They also act as their 'cell network' that they try to push, and basically call you an idiot for declining. In fairness their cell network is pretty cheap, but I'm just not interested.
I chose to pay more to use my own modem, and they absolutely hounded me, stopping just short of calling me stupid about once a month. Maybe it was commissioned sales people searching for people like me as a given, and getting mad when I rebuffed.
And let's not even talk about data caps. Which, by the way, using their modem exempted you. Why? I naively assume because they can't differentiate hotspot data from yours. Maybe I'm wrong.
The whole service is dystopian. I moved since luckily to a rural, middle of nowhere area that does their own fiber. It has zero of those issues, and costs about half as much for twice the speed. It makes you realize how scummy they really are.
- be able to spy on my neighbors
- add more surveillance systems into my house
- have my neighbors be able to spy on me through my walls
We could use terahertz spectrum to detect specific molecules and in turn use terahertz frequencies and radios as a way to track specific ingredients in food or pollutants in the air
It's the same tool much of the time, including here. Utopia is getting a warning there is an intruder in your residence before you walk in, or better deterring that from happening. Autocracy is the government tracking you in your house.
But I do see this as an extremely useful tool for autocrats, hackers, and abusive relationships. I'm willing to bet that this is used by these malicious actors far more than your average user gets a true positive detection. And we really should be clear, the danger is far more than autocrats.
(And what limited configurability it provides is only through the app, which requires you to agree to their "molest your privacy policy". I had been content with just not installing the app , but my threat model hadn't considered this new development ...)
And don’t forget to set your DNS to a non-ISP resolver.
You need a box downstream of your ISP devices that encrypts all traffic out over a VPN. This is what I do.
Sure, but not necessarily who is home, since they won't have the MAC address of your device(s) connecting.
Also, traffic volumes are a lot noisier of signals than you might think, given how much automated and background stuff we have these days.
So, bringing your own modem gets rid of the rental fee, but requires moving to a different plan without the security feature bundled. This is of course more expensive, almost entirely negating the savings of bringing your own network equipment (I think our net savings is $5/month, which means its going to be a couple years to pay back the modem cost).
Still I thought a good DOCSIS 3.1 modem would be a few hundred.
although for the best control it is recommended to buy modem separately and wifi AP separately, because Comcast can send C&C commands to your modem over the copper cable
>stream audiobooks
>leave house, commit crime
Grounded fine copper mesh can attenuate RF and maintain cooling.
We have endless cases of Comcast and others criminally abusing their granted monopoly and the PUCs simply allowing them to run roughshod over consumers.
How do we fix it?
I know lead is bad for you, maybe a coincidence.
We use lead for shielding ionizing radiation like gamma rays, but even that uses a lot more lead than you'd find in paint.
Not all "radiation" is the same thing.
You know that lead tastes sweet, right?
That's funny because it does sound like they suggest it be used as such.
Turn that thing off.