oh, you can use commas too.
and if you're still not thinking this is fun, here's a quote from Wikipedia "But keep in mind that "PT36H" is not the same as "P1DT12H" when switching from or to Daylight saving time."
just add a unit to your period parameters. sigh.
It's pretty simple actually.
> 'X weeks' or 'Y hours Z minutes'
PxW, PTyHzM. So simple that I learned it in a few seconds.
/s
The CEO of socket.dev described an automated pipeline flagging new uploads for analysts, for example, which is good but not instantaneous:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45257681
The Aikido team also appear to be suggesting they investigated a suspicious flag (apologies if I’m misreading their post), which again needs time for analysts to work:
https://www.aikido.dev/blog/npm-debug-and-chalk-packages-com...
My thought was simply that these were caught relatively quickly by security researchers rather than by compromised users reporting breaches. If you didn’t install updates with a relatively short period of time after they were published, the subsequent response would keep you safe. Obviously that’s not perfect and a sophisticated, patient attack like liblzma suffered would likely still be possible but there really does seem to be a value to having something like Debian’s unstable/stable divide where researchers and thrill-seekers would get everything ASAP but most people would give it some time to be tested. What I’d really like to see is a community model for funding that and especially supporting independent researchers.
More seriously, automated scanners seem to do a good job already of finding malicious packages. It's a wonder that npm themselves haven't already deployed an automated countermeasure.
That's not true. This latest incident was detected by an individual researcher, just like many similar attacks in the past. Time and again, it's been people who flagged these issues, later reported to security startups, not automated tools. Don't fall for the PR spin.
If automated scanning were truly effective, we'd see deployments across all major package registries. The reality is, these systems still miss what vigilant humans catch.
No we wouldn't. Most package registries are run by either bigcorps at a loss or by community maintainers (with bigcorps again sponsoring the infrastructure).
And many of them barely go beyond the "CRUD" of package publishing due to lack of resources. The economic incentives of building up supply chain security tools into the package registries themselves are just not there.
This distinction matters. Malware detection is, in the general case, an undecidable problem (think halting problem and Rice theorem). No amount of static or dynamic scanning can guarantee catching malicious logic in arbitrary code. At best, scanners detect known signatures, patterns, or anomalies. They can't prove absence of malicious behavior.
So the reality is: if Google's assurance artifacts stop short of claiming automated malware detection is feasible, it's a stretch for anyone else to suggest registries could achieve it "if they just had more resources." The problem space itself is the blocker, not just lack of infra or resources.
> It started with a cryptic build failure in our CI/CD pipeline, which my colleague noticed
> This seemingly minor error was the first sign of a sophisticated supply chain attack. We traced the failure to a small dependency, error-ex. Our package-lock.json specified the stable version 1.3.2 or newer, so it installed the latest version 1.3.3, which got published just a few minutes earlier.
Is that possible? I thought the lock files restricted to a specific version with an integrity check hash. Is it possible that it would install a newer version which doesn't match the hash in the lock file? Do they just mean package.json here?
Well, for one, the behavior is somewhat insane.
`npm install` with no additional arguments does update the lockfile if your package.json and your lockfile are out of sync with one another for any reason, and so to get a guarantee that it doesn't change your lockfile, you must do additional configuration or guarantee by some external mechanism that you don't ever have an out of date package.json and lock. For this reason alone, the advice of "just don't use npm install, use npm ci instead" is still extremely valid, you'd really like this to fail fast if you get out of sync.
`npm install additional-package` also updates your lock file. Other package managers distinguish these two operations, with the one to add a new dependency being called "add" instead of "install".
The docs add to the confusion. https://docs.npmjs.com/cli/v11/commands/npm-install#save suggests that writing to package-lock.json is the default and you need to change configuration to disable it. The notion that it won't change your lock file if you're already in sync between package.json and package-lock.json is not actually spelled out clearly anywhere on the page.
> At least not anymore.
You've partially answered your own question here.
Is that the case? If it were ever true (outside of outright bugs in npm), it must have been many many years and major npm releases ago. So that doesn't justify brigading outdated information.
> Do they just mean package.json here?
Yes, most likely. A package-lock.json always specifies an exact version with hash and not a "version X or newer".
This comes up every time npm install is discussed. Yes, npm install will "ignore" your lockfile and install the latest dependancies it can that satisfy the constraints of your package.json. Yes, you should use npm clean-install. One shortcoming is the implementation insists on deleteing the entire node_modules folder, so package installs can actually take quite a bit of time, even when all the packages are being served from the npm disk cache: https://github.com/npm/cli/issues/564
[1] https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2024/05/03/prioritizing-sec...
2) Real chances for owners to notice they have been compromised
3) Adopt early before that commons is fully tragedy-ed.
This for instance will only install packages that are older than 14 days:
uv sync --exclude-newer $(date -u -v-14d '+%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%SZ')
It's great to see this kind of stuff being adopted in more places.
It would also be nice to have this as a flag so you can use it on projects that haven't configured it though, I wonder if that could be added too.
https://research.swtch.com/vgo-mvs#upgrade_timing
MVS makes tons of sense that you shouldn't randomly uptake "new" packages that haven't been "certified" by package maintainers in their own dependencies.
In the case of a vulnerable sub-dependency, you're effectively having to "do the work" to certify that PackageX is compatible with PackageY, and "--minAge" gives industry (and maintainers) time to scan before insta-pwning anyone who is unlucky that day.
exclude-newer = $(date -uv -14d '+%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%SZ')Does the JS ecosystem really move so fast that you can’t wait a month or two before updating your packages?
Normally old major or minor packages don't get an update, only the latest.
E.g. 4.1.47 (no update), 4.2.1 (yes got update).
So if the problem is in 4.1 you must "upgrade" to 4.2.
With "perfect" semver, this shouldn't be a problem, cause 4.2 only add new features... but... back to reality, the world is not perfect.
Suppose you have a package P1 with version 1.0.0 that depends on D1 with version ^1.0.0. The “^” indicates a range query. Without going into semver details, it helps update D1 automatically for minor patches or non-breaking feature additions.
In your project, everything looks fine as P1 is pinned to 1.0.0. Then, you install P2 that also uses D1. A new patch version of D1 (1.0.1) was released. The package manager automatically upgrades to 1.0.1 because it matches the expression ^1.0.0, as specified by P1 and P2 authors.
This can lead to surprises. JS package managers use lock files to prevent changes during installs. However, they still change the lock file for additions or manual version upgrades, resolving to newer minor dependencies if the version range matches. This is often desirable for bug fixes and security updates. But, it opens the door to this type of attack.
To answer your question, yes, the JS ecosystem moves faster, and pkg managers make it easy to create small libraries. This results in many “small” libraries as transitive dependencies. Rewriting these libraries with your own code works for simple cases like left-pad, but you can’t rewrite a webserver or a build tool that also has many small transitive dependencies. For example, the chalk library is used by many CLI tools to show color output.
In the JVM ecosystem it's quite common to have Dependabot or Renovate automatically create PRs for dependency upgrades withing a few hours of it being released. If it's manual it highly irregular and depends on the company.
The main deciding factors were the process and frequency it was released / upgraded by us or our customers.
The on-prem installs had the longest delay because once it was out there it was harder for us to address issues. Some customers also had a change freeze in place once things have been approved which was a pain to deal with if we needed to patch something for them.
Products that had a shorter release or update cycle (e.g. the mobile app) had a shorter delay (but still a delay) because any issue could be addressed faster.
The services that were hosted by us had the shortest delay on the order of days to weeks.
There were obviously exceptions in both directions but we tried to avoid them.
Prioritisation wasnt really an issue - a lot of dependencies were increased on internal builds so we had more time to test and verify before committing to it once it reached our stability rules.
Other factors that influenced us: - Blast radius - a buggy dependency in our desktop/server applications had more chance to cause damage than our hosted web application so it rolled a little slower for dependencies.
- Language (more like ergonomics of the language) - updating our C++ deps was a lot more cumbersome than JS deps)
The harder part, as is often the case, wasn't technical - but more convincing customers to take the new version and getting time with their IT teams to manage. It got easier over time but the bureaucracy at some of the clients was slow to change so I suspect they still face some issues.
I don't think people are having major versions updated every month, it is more really like 6 months or once a year.
I guess the problem might be people think auto updating minor versions in CI/CD pipeline will keep them more secure as bug fixes should be in minor versions but in reality we see it is not the case and attackers use it to spread malware.
The problem is that "should" assumes that point releases never introduce regressions (whether they be security, performance, or correctness). Unfortunately, history has shown that regressions can and do happen. The best practice for release engineering (CI/CD, if you will) is to assume the worst, test thoroughly, and release incrementally (include bake time).
Delaying updates isn't just a backstop against security vulnerabilities; it's useful for letting the dust settle after an update of any kind that can adversely impact the application. The theory is that someone will find it before you, report it, and that a fix will be issued.
Really depends on the context and where the code is being used. As others have pointed out most js packages will use semantic versioning. For the patch releases (the last of the three numbers), for code that is exposed to the outside world you generally want to apply those rather quickly. As those will contain hotfixes including those fixing CVEs.
For the major and minor releases it really depends on what sort of dependencies you are using and how stable they are.
The issue isn't really unique to the JavaScript eco system either. A bigger java project (certainly with a lot of spring related dependencies) will also see a lot of movement.
That isn't to say that some tropes about the JavaScript ecosystem being extremely volatile aren't entirely true. But in this case I do think the context is the bigger difference.
> then again, we make client side applications with essentially no networking, so security isn’t as critical for us, stability is much more important)
By its nature, most JavaScript will be network connected in some fashion in environments with plenty of bad actors.
I've also had cases where I've found a bug in a package, submitted a bug report or PR, and then immediately pulled in the new version as soon as it was fixed. Things move fast in the JavaScript/npm/GitHub ecosystem.
In 2 months, a typical js framework goes through the full Gartner Hype Cycle and moves to being unmaintained with an archived git repo and dozens of virus infected forks with similar names.
- Reviewing the source code in the actual published package
- Tooling that enable one to easily see a trusted diff between a package version and the previous version of that package
- Built-in support in the package manager CLIs to only install packages that have a sufficient number of manual reviews from trusted sources (+ no / not too many negative reviews). With manual review required to bypass these checks.
There are enough users of each package that such a system should not be too onerous on users once the infrastructure was in place.
I know it would take time for packages to adopt this but it could be implemented as parameters when installing a new dependency, like `npm i ping --allow-net`. I wouldn't give a library like chalk access to I/O, processes or network.
You might be able to do this around install scripts, though disk writing is likely needed for all (but perhaps locations could be controlled).
Yeah, it needs work from the language runtime, but I think even a hacky, leaky 'security' abstraction would be helpful, because the majority of malware developers probably aren't able to break out of a language-level sandbox, even if the language still allows you to do unsafe array access.
Then we can iterate.
"waiting a length of time doesn’t increase security, and if such a practice became common then it would just delay discovery of vulnerabilities until after that time anyways"
https://github.com/npm/rfcs/issues/646#issuecomment-12824971...
pnpm config set -g minimumReleaseAge 1440
Does that work as well? I can't tell if the global settings are the same as workspace settings, and it lets me set nonsense keys this way, so I'm not sure if there is a global equivalent.
Though pnpm does have a setting to help with this too: https://pnpm.io/settings#resolutionmode time-based, which effectively pins subdependencies based on the published time of the direct dependency.
There's an open discussion about adding something similar to bun as well^
minimumReleaseAge doesn't seem to be a bulletproof solution so there's still some research/testing to be done in this area
Large tech companies, as with most industry, have realized most people will pay with their privacy and data long before they'll pay with money. We live in a time of the Attention Currency, after all.
But you don't need to be a canary to live a technology-enabled life. Much software that you pay with your privacy and data has free or cheap open-source alternatives that approach the same or higher quality. When you orient your way of consuming to 'eh, I can wait till the version that respects me is built', life becomes more enjoyable in myriad ways.
I don't take this to absolute levels. I pay for fancy pants LLM's, currently. But I look forward to the day not too far away where I can get today's quality for libre in my homelab.
Good to see some OSS alternatives showing up!
If you run critical infrastructure, e.g. packages over a certain size, you should have the option as a maintainer to verify your identity, not just to prove ownership, but to require a re-verification when settings are changed or when releasing a new package.
This option would not solve everything, but it does mean that a simple credential theft would have a much harder perimeter to breach.
Of course, the malware could just embed itself as an IIFE and get launched when the package is loaded, so disallowing postinstall is not really a security solution.
If I see someone using npm as a cli tool unironically...
But the real solution to this kind of attack is to stop resolving packages by name and instead resolve them by hash, then binding a name to that hash for local use.
That would of course be a whole different, mostly unexplored, world, but there's just no getting around the fact that blindly accepting updated versions of something based on its name is always going to create juicy attack surface around the resolution of that name to some bits.
I'm not inherently against the idea of specifying a hash, it would protect against NPM hosting infrastructure being compromised, but again, that's not what we're seeing here
But if we both attempt to install 0x456def, it's clear that whoever has 0xabc123 is in trouble. This is especially important in cases where you might need a package while you're on a separate network partition than npm. Any peer can provide it and you know it hasn't been tampered with because if it had been it would have a different hash.
you can only unpublish.
content hash integrity is verified in lockfiles.
the problem is with dependencies using semver ranges, especially wide ones like "debug": "*"
initiatives like provenance statements [0] / code signing are also good complement to delayed dependency updates.
also not running as default / whitelisting postinstall scripts is good default in pnpm.
modifying (especially adding) keys in npmjs.org should be behind dedicated 2fa (as well as changing 2fa)
The only immutability that counts is immutability that you can verify, which brings us back to cryptographic hashes.
As for lock files, they prevent skulduggery after the maintainer has said "yeah, I trust this thing and my users should too" but the attacks we're seeing is upstream of that point because maintainers are auto-trusting things based on their name+version pair, not based on their contents.
Isn't the whole point that malicious actors usually only have a very short window where they can actually get you to install anything, before shut out again? That's the whole point of having a delay in the package-manager.
There is some sense in giving the early adopters some time to raise the alarm and opting into late adoption, but isn't that better handled by defensive use of semantic versioning?
Consider the xzutils backdoor. It was introduced a month before it was discovered, and it was discovered by a user.
If that user had waited a few days, it would just have been discovered a few days later, during which time it may have been added to an even wider scope of downstream packages. That is, supposing they didn't apply reduced scrutiny due to their perception that it was safe due to the soak period.
Its not nothing, but its susceptible to creating a false sense of security.
All recent attacks have also been noticed within hours of release by security companies that automatically scan all newly released packages published to npm.
So as far as I know all recent attacks would have been avoided by adding a short delay.
A better (not perfect) solution: Every package should by AI analysed on an update before it is public available, to detect dangerous code and set a rating.
In package.json should be a rating defined, when remote package is below that value it could be updated, if it is higher a warning should appear.
But this will cost, but i hope, that companies like github, etc. will allow package-Repositories to use their services for free. Or we should find a way, to distribute this services to us (the users and devs) like a BOINC-Client.
I thought we discuss here problems and possible solutions.
My fault.