• saulr
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Just to add a piece of data to support this:

> It turns out the phone signal inside the station can be better than the one above ground

I was surprised when I noticed I had 5G in the tunnel, ran a speed test and hit 641Mbps down!

https://www.speedtest.net/result/i/6831252952

  • dgxyz
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That always hurts. I live in a particularly nice bit of London and there is virtually no mobile phone service other than voice and can only get 80 meg ADSL. Yet the mole people get better service. Grr.
One might even suspect that the particularly nice parts of London are full of NIMBYs who successfully petition against the eyesore of mobile masts being put up…

(Circumstantial evidence is that a particularly extra nice part of central London has no tube station, ostensibly to keep the riff-raff out, and is the only area with a proposed station on Crossrail 2 that voted against having a new station!)

  • dgxyz
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There's plenty of riff raff here. Like me :)
  • ljm
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I have the opposite problem where I can only get HyperOptic. Not even OpenReach stuff. No problem with bandwidth but zero price competition, and 5G broadband isn’t viable either.

Going from £70/mo for gigabit to £65/mo for 500mb is insulting.

  • dgxyz
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Urgh hyperoptic is dog shit as well. CGNAT or pay extra on top of already insulting prices.
Like many of London's woes, that's because of planning, councils have to approve infrastructure and block it: https://www.londoncentric.media/p/why-exactly-is-londons-pho...

I'd say it's developing-world tier, but a lot of the developing world has really good 5G signal these days.

  • dgxyz
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There are also some absolute morons out there. Couple of local things around me...

First I went to one of the local town planning meetings in my area when they were rolling out FTTC. This one was due to a rather old person objecting to the placement of a streetside box which was not even outside her property and no one who it would have affected could see it or cared about it. I raised my objections about her being a NIMBY old fart and was asked to leave. She single-handedly blocked it for 5 years due to council connections. She dropped dead. Stuck on 20 meg ADSL until that happened.

Second, they built a 5g mast put didn't put any equipment in it and left it 3 months. Several local threads on Facebook from the tweakers about how it was causing all sorts of completely unrelated problems from tinnitus to covid to mind control. Then someone burned it. There is still no equipment in the cabinet or mast today, nearly 4 years on. No one got 5g.

Second, they built a 5g mast put didn't put any equipment in it and left it 3 months. Several local threads on Facebook from the tweakers about how it was causing all sorts of completely unrelated problems from tinnitus to covid to mind control. Then someone burned it. There is still no equipment in the cabinet or mast today, nearly 4 years on. No one got 5g.

Reminds me of this infamous decade-old story:

https://web.archive.org/web/20161010203002/http://mybroadban...

This happens a million times all over the country by YouTube and social media addicted morons. Who go on to complain about how "nothing ever gets done in this country" and they want the "good old days" back.

Except in the good old days things just got done when there was demand for them and NIMBYs were told to fuck off.

I'd say it's developing-world tier, but a lot of the developing world has really good 5G signal these days.

They also have a much bigger population using exclusively mobiles rather than landlines, since their infrastructure developed when the former was already available, and it's cheaper to just put up a few towers than run one landline to each subscriber.

During Covid people were attacking engineering laying fibre because it was “5g”, and facebook had told them 5g caused Covid.
tl;dr people reject installing ugly masts in densely urbanised neighbourhoods, meaning there often isn't enough capacity for everyone to get fast 5G.
  • dbish
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Pretty neat but as someone who commutes every day on the New York subway I hope it’s never “cracked” here. Phone usage without headphones is already annoying enough and I greatly appreciate the various people trying to take calls eventually lose service.
The worst is not calls, it is the thousands of zombies hooked up on tiktok 24/7, of course with headphones, so completely unaware and indifferent to their environment, who block tunnels, escalators, turnstiles, etc.
In the 90s we read the paper and dumbed with our magnetic tickets. In the 00s we listened to MP3s while playing snake on an oyster. In the 10s we played Andy birds and listened to iTunes with a credit card at the turnstile. In the 20s we doom scroll and listen to Spotify while tapping out with our phone.

I don’t see the issue.

All of that that they did while they sit. I don’t remember people reading the newspapers while slow walking in the middle of a corridor. And the problem with headphones is that they make people unaware of their surrounding, alone in the world, and therefore for instance unaware that there is someone on their left that they will cut the way to. Small incivilities, but repeat several times a day every day and it gets seriously annoying.
It’s a tough choice, is it worse to hear their phone calls, or hear 2 seconds of every bit of TikTok/Instagram feed trash. Either way, no cellular access seems a plus.
Honestly I'd prefer to listen to phone calls over brainless reels. Both are hell.
Who still calls anyway? Literally all my friends exclusively message now (on WhatsApp).

It would be really annoying if I were out of touch for the whole duration of subway trips. But in my city it works great. Here the 3 main providers pooled together and shared the installation.

One or two people per carriage/bus.
This behaviour is so bad on London (above ground) trains, if they ever do 'crack it' and roll out mobile signal to the Underground, those tiny carriages will be unbearable.
There already is signal on many underground lines, and it’s pretty rare that people are playing things out loud in my experience?
London, increasingly common. I’d say a third of the time when I take the tube. Combine that with people making loud calls, 100% of the time. But I find people imposing their music or tiktok videos more obnoxious than a builder discussing his next job a bit loudly.
A third of the time?

Sorry, nonsense. I use the tube several times a day and it's a real rarity.

I do worry about the tube becoming a cacophony of phone calls, but really? Everyone message now anyway so I reckon that'll be a rarity too.

I also never see this behaviour, but I pretty much only use the tube for commuting at peak times. I think commuters are generally better behaved. The sheer density of people means that anti social behaviour will get angrily shut down very quickly.
It may also be highly dependent on which direction you travel. When you travel east from the city, you get totally different demographics than when you travel west.
Really? What do you mean?
My daily train to/from London Bridge to West Croydon is borderline unbearable.
It's because phones speakers aren't loud enough to be audible over the sound of the tube itself!

It is noticeable on buses and overground when people play things out load, but to be honest quite rare in the grand scheme of things.

That's true. I made several complaints about that to TFL before capitulating and just settling for noise-cancelling headphones.

Never been happier.

The clincher was noticing that the drivers themselves had access to ear defenders ... TFL said that that's because they're down there for extended periods of time. Sounds reasonable but I'm not buying that as a way out of not fixing the issue and exposing my ears to the worst bits of the tube.

Also has the ancillary benefits of blocking out those rare times (for me) when people do have their phone on speaker or are having a chat I'm uninterested in.

Somehow even though there's great cell coverage in Warsaw metro people aren't being obnoxious with it.
What is the thing with people using phones without headphones? And making calls on public transport? When did that become a thing? It’s the most obnoxious selfish behaviour and it shocks me every time.

It’s not just Gen Z either, I’ve seen a few boomers do it and even a couple of millennials.

Ten of so years ago I was on a train and the women opposite me gave all her credit card details to someone over the phone — anyone close by could have had fun with them
  • edent
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Why is your need for silence more important than other people's need to communicate?
Neither of those things are needs, it’s just wants and preferring your own wants over others is completely normal.

Imagine trying to live your life where other people’s desires by default overrode you own.

  • nanna
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Because silence is a common good, like clean air. It's everyone's. When people fill it with their noise they effectively privatize it for the duration. When they shout on speakerphone or play their music or blare sound from their apps it's especially selfish.
Imagine trying to live your life where other people’s desires by default overrode you own.

Unfortunately that happens a lot; it's called the government.

Collective vs individuals desires
They can use headphones. The problem is listening to someone scroll through tiktok with volume on max.
Etiquette. Some are raised with it.
It's actually against byelaws to play music or other loud sounds on transport in London and they can prosecute you if they so wished...

It's about acknowledging it's a shared resource and respecting the space. No loud noises, no littering, no being drunk etc

These days people act like they're the only ones travelling

  • nanna
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Looks like TFL issued a whopping three fines in total last year...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdx4lje9jpjo

I know, it's pathetic. It's partly because they don't want to pay for the staff to do the enforcement and partly probably some other reasons.

In classic British style they just try to influence and nudge people with campaigns and posters. That way the organisation doesn't have to deal with awkward accusations of racism etc

  • jorvi
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Their silence disrupts no one, but one call or loud song disrupts 20-40 people their peace.

Don't be a douche.

You’re be a bit contrarian there and I’m quite sure you actually believe it’s far more nuanced than that
  • catoc
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You do understand that one of those “needs”affects others around you, and one of them leaves them in peace, right? Also I’m sure parent wasn’t referring to emergency calls
Not to excuse other people's behavior but buying a decent pair of noise canceling headphones or earbuds will make putting up with it a whole lot easier. You don't even have to listen to anything, or you can put rain noises and thunderstorms. It's as much better soundscape than public transport.
That also creates a problem that people then can not hear important announcements or be aware of dangers (such as knife wielding attackers, as happened on an LNER train just late last year)
You can still hear those things, just not obnoxiously loudly. NC works best against static sounds. Speech still makes it through. Just not as loud.

If you're in a busy car enough people will hear it to be aware, and if you're on your own you will hear the announcement clearly.

Besides it's really a one in 10 million chance you'll get stabbed on the metro, not worth worrying about. The chance of getting hit by a car in traffic is much higher. That feeling of always being in some kind of danger seems to be very American, I never really see that in people here in Europe. I think it's the sensationalism in the press there, every little incident is blown up to massive "BREAKING NEWS!" proportions.

  • 7952
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A deaf person wouldn't be able to either. We need better non audible ways of signalling.
Noise cancelling headphones on NYC public transit is insanity.
Why?
I had assumed the delay was technical but it turns out it was mostly about finding a business model that worked for everyone. It is good they finally settled on a shared infrastructure approach so they do not have to crowd the tunnels with extra equipment.
I wonder if they considered using the existing metal tracks as antennae, or even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication to feed base stations in the trains themselves.

So the ESN in the tunnels runs at 400 MHz, far lower than the 700 to 3,600 MHz range usually used by smartphones.

It's worth noting that 450MHz was listed as one of the GSM bands, but apparently was never used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_frequency_bands#GSM-450

Weird because very few phones have that band. Requires much larger antennas. Twice as long as for 800Mhz.

Edit: ah I see why, this is exclusively about the Emergency Services network, not for regular phones.

In that sense it seems a bit similar to GSM-R used by the railways here.

This is the new system for emergency communications? TfL just finished up an upgrade on that in 2021. That upgrade was built by Thales.[1] That system is purely for operational use, and is not cell phone compatible. It's compatible with the gear cops and fire brigades use. Is it being replaced?

As late as 2018, the classic century-old system, with two bare wires on insulators on the tunnel walls, was still maintained.[2] Clipping a telephone handset to the two wires would connect to a dispatcher, and the wires were placed so that reaching out of the driver's cab to do this was possible. In addition, squeezing the wires together by hand would trip a relay and cut traction power. Is that still operational? The 2011 replacement was ISDN.

[1] https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/news-centre/press-releases/th...

[2] https://www.railengineer.co.uk/communications-on-the-central...

It always better to have a backup.
  • 7952
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The classic system does sound pretty elegant really.
I'm having a really hard reading this. Not only are the paragraphs are so short, they each feel like part of a uncompleted thought.

The content doesn't feel AI generated, but maybe it is? I read somewhere that short paragraphs is an AI signature!?

  • zith
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Interesting! I know Sweden was not first, but Stockholm has had 3g coverage in the subway since 2005 and 4g since 2016.
  • cagz
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I use the underground frequently. It doesn't really feel like half of it is covered. Where it is available, it works amazingly. I might have been using the other half by sheer luck.
One of the frustrating things about international roaming in the UK is typically your plan does not include coverage on this neutral network on the underground
I was thinking it could be a radio band issue?

I had a fun situation when I had friends visiting me in Japan for a road trip. One friend's US-model Android phone didn't support the specific low bands used for sparse coverage in rural Japan, but the repeaters inside of the tunnels were all on standard 2100 MHz, so whenever we drove through a tunnel he rushed to his phone to get some messages through. Kind of the opposite to what you usually experience with loss of signal in tunnels :)

Source? As someone that comes back to London every month, I’ve been able to roam the same as anywhere else in the UK. I’d be shocked if this were true.
I don't think that's correct.

With the old WiFi networks (Virgin, Vodafone WiFi, etc.), yes.

With the new 4G+5G coverage, you can access that the same as you access above ground coverage.

The main problem if you're roaming is that you're considered a lower-priority customer, and since the network is often saturated already, you don't get any bandwidth.
Did the UK stop people from just picking up a cheap SIM at the Airport? I always like a local number when traveling. Anyway, Indian Roaming plans are so cheap these days that it's much easier and cheaper to just subscribe to them as part of the plan. These days, I don’t even need to add/activate it or anything, the providers turn it ON when I start my phone outside India and turn it off when I re-activate back in India.
I think I saw vending machines with SIM cards recently in Heathrow airport.
Are the dual redundant leaky feeders configured to act as a MIMO array?
  • cedws
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Definitely not. Try it in Tokyo, every single line, every single station has high speed coverage. I can’t recall signal ever dropping out for me.
  • Havoc
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London’s first line predates tokyos by like 60 years and was literally the test ground for how to make underground’s

The challenge isn’t the technology but rather the environment you’re trying to retrofit

  • mft_
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So if I follow, you’re saying that because London’s underground is older than Tokyo’s, it somehow changes the physical environment of the tunnels or their surroundings such that installing the required technology is more difficult?

Please expand…

  • Havoc
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You’ve not been in London’s deep underground lines I take it? Some of the tunnels are so ancient and cramped that tall people can’t stand straight in most of the carriages. As the article says there just isn’t space to add equipment. Same reason they’re struggling to add air conditioning to older lines - no clearance

The recently built lines had 5G etc from the start. It’s not difficult when the environment isn’t constraining you. Even malls add indoor 5g these days

There is very limited clearance inside the tunnels, and a lot of electrical noise from existing systems.
The tunnels are particularly narrow and lived with iron rings. There's less space for adding equipment.
  • cedws
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That's the standard excuse but it's the same on the Elizabeth line which was commissioned only a few years ago.
From looking at the WiFi ssid’s broadcast at the New York subway stations, I believe Boldyn also does the phone coverage here too
  • bede
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> There’s another distance limit at work here, and that is the speed of light. It takes milliseconds for the signal in your phone to reach the hotel above ground and be handed over to the mobile network.

It takes roughly 100us for light to travel 30km – Can you explain how the speed of light is relevant here?

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Anyone who lives in London knows that phone coverage on the Tube is anything but "cracked".
As a resident with a phone problem I miss the underground not having any signal. Other people using TikTok doesn’t bother me so much because it’s relatively rare. My own tendencies with screen time bother me more. No internet actually forced me to read books more and I miss that.

But this is a lot better for tourists who need the internet to navigate underground. So I’m pleased for them.

How London enabled TikTok addicts to annoy other passengers
The Paris metro figured this out perfectly way back in 2021 - full bars, 5G.
  • edent
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The Paris metro is mostly cut-and-cover. It isn't very deep. The deepest tube lines are around 60m underground.
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>There’s another distance limit at work here, and that is the speed of light. It takes milliseconds for the signal in your phone to reach the hotel above ground and be handed over to the mobile network. But if it takes too long to get from phone to hotel, then your phone call s..a.rt..s..t o. br..e..ak up. As it happens, that distance is about 12km, so Boldyn needs nine hotels around London to cover the whole of the Underground

I find that interesting. Another fascinating rabbit hole the article has sent me down is that there is an unused station called north end. I've been down that stretch before and i had no idea. Does anyone know if passengers can see it?

There's a small surface building that doesn't look like a station, platforms are visible if you're paying attention, and it can be used for emergency evacuations.
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